More proof that our Islamic interventions have failed…

Build a school,a hospital or a road. Dispose of tyrants,allow movies and soccer.Bleed and die for the stranger.

All of this is for naught when our alleged friends get in a tizzy about some morons desire to burn copies of the Quran.

My breaking point on this whole mess is the news of Gen. Petraeus speaking the truth that the planned Bar-B-Quran-acue on 11 September via the Florida based Dove World Outreach Center will provide images and sound bites for extremist consumption. Sadly the general misses the mark when he excludes the sad fact that everyday folks in Afghanistan and Iraq (and elsewhere) will be going fucking berserk.

There is any number of things that make this whole story a real pisser.

1. The ultra-devout Muslims and among this one has to count the extremist nutters there is a clear perception that a Quran in anything other than Arabic is crap.This is important since I doubt the Florida pastor is springing for non-translated Qurans.

2.Like it or not the USA still has free speech.There seems to be a lot of confusion regards the Bill of Rights lately.Be it building something or burning something or being of religion A,B,C, or Z meaning anything.

3. That daily good works can be so easily countered by an isolated act indicates that our good works have no real value.If this is so true,why the fuck are we bothering?

4.Islamic idiocy is bad ! Christian and Jewish idiocy isn’t ??? I don’t know but for me it’s like Forrest says. “Stupid is as stupid does.”

Some stuff from DoD to wrap your head around :

As of 9/3/2010 the official stats are as follows.

Iraq.

4,421 deaths. 31,929 wounded

Afghanistan

1,161 dead and 7,819 wounded

My position as of 9/7/2010?

Burn the Qurans…fuck everyone.

Let’s get out of Iraq and Afghanistan,they don’t deserve another ounce of our service members blood,sweat and tears.

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25 Comments

  1. bvilleyellowdog says:

    so the Iraqi and Afgani are to blame for some american bigots?

  2. Natassia says:

    Regardless of whether a translated Qur’an is considered to be “crap” by some ultra-orthodox clerics, it is still widely considered to be an affront to Islam.

    Remember the Muhammad cartoon controversy? Those cartoons were by no way accurate representations of Muhammad, but it was the intention of the cartoonists that their drawings represent the Prophet.

    In Islam, intentions are what really matter–which is why a Muslim can lie about his faith if he fears persecution, and Allah does not consider that to be an act of apostasy or even showing a lack of faith.

    You have no idea how much I agree with your last two sentences. 🙂

  3. Natassia says:

    yellowdog,

    Iraqi and Aghani Muslims are to blame for their own bad behavior. How’s that?

  4. Alfie says:

    so the Iraqi and Afgani are to blame for some american bigots?

    I honestly have no idea where that comes from,certainly nothing in this post.If you want to expand on that I can possibly reply.

  5. Natassia says:

    Alfie, you might find this brief discussion at VFR about the Dove church’s plans to burn the Qur’an very humorous.

  6. Alfie says:

    natassia
    It is my understanding ANY representation of Muhammed is offensive,even if one tries to do a really classy interpretation. My comment about the Quran was sparked by something I found in an Islamic forum. It was a debate on whether “infidels” should be given translated Qurans. The responses ranged from No! it still being a Quran to yes as long as it isn’t in Arabic.

  7. Natassia says:

    I’ve had discussions with Muslims about the concept of a woman not being able to touch the Qur’an while unclean (menstruating.) Many of them are of the understanding that they can read an online Qur’an, but they cannot touch a physical one, regardless of the translation.

    The problem is not so much as to whether a Qur’an is in Arabic or not, but rather what is the intention of the kaffir towards Islam and the words of Allah.

  8. Hucking Fypocrites says:

    Who gave these Christians the right to judge?

    It sure wasn’t their god.

    Hypocrites…..

  9. Natassia says:

    @ Hucking

    This is a common misconception that most non-Christians (and even many Christians) have about Christianity.

    Christians are given the DISCERNMENT to judge between right and wrong.

    There is certainly nothing un-Christian about determining that Islam is wrong and based on an evil lie.

  10. Rutherford says:

    Alfie, I find this to be one of your more confounding posts. I happen to agree with the general notion of us leaving Afghanistan, primarily because Karzai is an ungrateful arrogant prick from what I can see.

    BUT

    I really can’t tell if you are truly advocating Koran burning or not. Surely you know this is a bad idea on several levels. First, despite Natassia’s blatant bigotry, Islam is a legit religion practiced by millions around the globe, only a small minority of which use Muslim scripture as a free pass to kill people. Sadly those few suck all the air out of the room and their peaceful brothers are too afraid to challenge them

    Second, regardless of first Amendment freedoms, in America we consider it poor taste to desecrate the holy books of any religion. It just ain’t cool. Does this Florida pastor have the “right” to do it? Sure. But it ain’t cool.

    Third, this is a case (as David Petraeus, Robert Gibbs, Hillary Clinton and many others have pointed out) where even the First Amendment might be irrelevant since this Koran bonfire is equivalent to yelling “fire” in a crowded theater. We know with 90% certainty that American lives will be lost directly because of this demonstration. The pastor’s defense is that the nutty Muslims will find some excuse to kill us anyway. OK … I can buy that … but why throw fuel on the fire unnecessarily? Particularly when their primary point is to protest the establishment of Sharia law in the US … something that is not even remotely possible except in the paranoid dreams of a small group of our citizens.

    So, just to appease me cos I can be a bit thick sometimes … are you really behind this Koran bonfire?

    P.S. The following comment from you confused me: “This is important since I doubt the Florida pastor is springing for non-translated Qurans.” So you’re saying the Korans will not be in Arabic? A non translated Koran would be in Arabic right? How would our extremist enemies know which version of the Koran was being toasted anyway? I need help with this one.

  11. Natassia says:

    Oh, gawd. Not the b-word.

    Rutherford is spouting the typical suicidal liberal mantra: if the followers of the religion of peace foam at the mouth and turn rabid over something offensive toward their religion (ie cartoons of Muhammad, burning of the Koran, etc.), then any violence that ensues is the fault of the people who were insensitive towards Muslims’ sensibilities.

    Way to go, failing to recognize that adults are still responsible for their own behaviors, regardless of how offensive their neighbors might be.

  12. Rutherford says:

    Natassia, on this last statement you are absolutely right. People are responsible for their actions … but …

    If I know you to be mentally unstable and I taunt you and you then shoot me in the arm, surely you are to blame for your action in shooting me but am I truly without any guilt in the exchange? Have I not dared you to shoot me in the arm? Am I being prudent by taunting you?

    Think about this inconsistency. You care that the “GZ Mosque” will be viewed by radicals as a symbol of victory so you don’t want it built but you don’t care that desecration of their holy book will be viewed as offensive and may result in violence. Clearly you acknowledge our behavior has consequences. You don’t like the consequences of building the mosque (which even if I believed them, won’t get anyone killed) but you ignore the consequences of burning the Koran which will likely result in American deaths.

    How can you not see an inconsistency there?

  13. Natassia says:

    Rutherford, are you actually calling Muslims “mentally unstable”? Of course, there is a reason Michelle Malkin (I love her, by the way) once called Islam the “religion of perpetual outrage.”

    I think you are treading dangerous waters here. If a beautiful woman walks half-naked alone down a dark alley in southeast D.C. and is raped, is it “her fault”? Is she guilty at all for what happened to her? Think about it.

    Obviously it wasn’t wise to be beautiful, alone, and half-naked in a dark, city alleyway. It’s kind of like swimming in a pool with sharks and then being surprised you were bitten. But human beings are not animals, and they are capable of rational thinking and decision-making.

    So, before you continue to put your foot in your mouth by insinuating that scary numbers of Muslims are mentally ill and animals (B-I-G-O-T), perhaps we should instead question WHY we’re moddly-coddling these people and their vile belief systems in the first place.

    Sure, we can tell our beautiful women not to walk in dark alleys, but we can also flush the alleys of the evil men, erect bright lights, and have more cops patrol the area…so that any other innocent women (or men) who stumble into that alley will not meet with the same fate as the beautiful, half-naked woman.

    I recommend checking out this discussion. I’ll post some of it:

    Kathlene M. writes:

    Let us contrast and compare:

    Feisal Rauf continues to advance the building of the mosque at Ground Zero, with its opening scheduled for 9/11/11, despite the fact that this is a deliberately provocative act which has angered Americans who consider Ground Zero sacred ground. Lamestream media and politicians vociferously defend Rauf.

    Pastor Terry Jones plans to burn a Koran on 9/11/10, despite the fact that this is a deliberately provocative act which will anger Muslims who consider the Koran sacred. Lamestream media and most politicians vociferously condemn Jones.

    James P. writes:

    Doug writes that the Koran burning “will cause loss of life.” Muslims may well attribute some future atrocity to the Koran burning, but if they didn’t have that as a pretext, they’d easily find something else as they have in the past. Ultimately, what “causes the loss of life” is Islam, not any particular action that non-Muslims take.

    Glynn Custred writes:

    The media could have simply ignored Terry Jones’s Koran-burning stunt and no one would have known any thing about it, the way they ignore so many things that do not fit their agenda. This incident, however, fits nicely into the elite’s agenda, or at least their mind set, since it allows them to identify what they are always looking for, an irrational “right winger” against whom they can rail and thereby show off their superior virtue. If anyone gets killed because of the reaction of barbaric elements in Islam to this stunt, it is the media and the self-congradulatory elites who are exploiting it.

  14. Alfie says:

    Rutherford although I put out this post in some haste I believe I covered all the bases I wanted to touch on.
    For the part re translated Qurans. My point there is that many if not most of the extremist/jihadists types would fall under the category that a non Arabic Quran is nothing ergo I find it kind of f@#$ed that they would care if it gets torched. A parallel would be the allegedly rising Latin Mass crowd in the US Catholic Church (also the entire pre Vatican II CC). You’re sitting there and can’t understand a fraking thing,but its holier ooohhh ahhhh.

    For your general concern let me say this.

    I can put up a chocolate Jesus,portray Jesus as sleeping with prostitutes,or put a cross in a jar of urine and because nothing gets blown up its ok.I don’t buy that.
    I think the Fl. pastor is an idiot,but I also think Iman Rauf’s myopic,stubborn attitude about the 51 Park/Cordoba whatever is too.They both have the right to do it though.

    We have built schools,roads,hospitals and mosques in Iraq and Afghanistan,and for mosques,well we’ve ponied up $$ for them in other places as well. We obviously try as a nation to be open minded and accommodating (see Dearborn Ramadan football practice,Harvard muslim female swim hours and assorted foot bath installations as well as application of civil rights law) and because some douchebag with 5o followers torches a book its all gone?!?!

    I’m not going the E66 route here,don’t misunderstand me. A cartoon is a cartoon. A book is a book.If we’re to live like Americans….someone needs to grow up a bit. That’s all I’m really saying.

  15. Alfie says:

    Also Rutherford I want to point out to you that Rauf has now said that if Park 51 isn’t built there will be violence.
    At what point is something a threat/ultimatum,and at which point does one say enough?
    I don’t feel like posting anymore so let me go ultra-condensed mode here in comment form.
    1.I think the Park 51 project is insensitive and ill advised.
    2.All things considered I don’t care if they build it.
    3.I always have and still do believe the place will be targeted from all sides and fail to achieve anything noble.
    4.Violence is never to be accepted as a bargaining tool.When it is offered it must be crushed.

  16. Natassia says:

    Rauf has now said that if Park 51 isn’t built there will be violence

    What?! That’s news to me, Alfie!

  17. Alfie says:

    It’s getting taken out of context in some corners but the following is a good read

  18. Rutherford says:

    Thanks for the clarification Alfie. I’ll be writing my own post tonight focusing on a different aspect of today’s events. Being a religious skeptic to begin with, today was not a banner day for religion (ANY religion) in my book. Just a bunch of loonies of all stripes who, as I’ve often thought, will one day get us all killed. I’m in such a funk about organized religion’s role in this that I’m not gonna blog about that aspect. I will only get myself in trouble.

    Natassia, yes, people who kill others over a book or a cartoon are mentally ill. No that’s not bigoted. That’s a fact. It is bigoted to ascribe their crazy-ass behavior to the entire group.

    While I think your semi-naked woman is a false equivalency, I do understand your point. It is vitally important that we not blame the victim. So I would submit that the soldiers and civilians who might lose their lives (the real victims) have both the Muslims who killed them and the Jones who incited them to blame.

  19. Natassia says:

    Rutherford, by attributing violence over a book or cartoon to mental illness excuses the behavior. Mentally ill people aren’t held responsible for their behavior because it is the fault of a mental defect, deficiency, or disease.

    Although, I would argue that it requires a modicum of mental deficiency to believe in Islam in the first place…at the very least, a lack of logic.

    Okay, I’m going to continue with my false equivalency. Let’s say that half-naked woman is raped by a man who was pissed off because his wife went to a party without him, dressed half-naked, and so he retaliated against that innocent woman.

    Would you blame his wife for pissing him off because she did something that she knew would offend him?

  20. Rutherford says:

    it requires a modicum of mental deficiency to believe in Islam in the first place…at the very least, a lack of logic.

    Religion (any religion) and logic do not belong in the same discussion. I will grant you your faith … but please don’t try to sell it to me as logic.

    You are right … you made your false equivalency even falser. 🙂 The wife in your hypothetical has no way of knowing that her pissed off husband will encounter a semi-naked woman who reminds him of her. On the other hand, based on cartoon-inspired violence and other nutty radical propaganda, Pastor Jones has every reason to believe his behavior will result in a very tragic outcome.

    On a side note, if we were political allies, I’d ask you to call me Boris (as in Boris Badenov) but since we are not, I guess you’ll have to call me Bullwinkle. 🙂 (If that is your real pic, you look kinda young so you may have to IMBD Bullwinkle to get my joke.) 🙂

    P.S. That strange aside was inspired by the fact I’ve been watching Rocky and Bullwinkle with my daughter before bed time every night lately.

  21. Rutherford says:

    IMBD should have been IMDB … I’m sleep deprived.

  22. Natassia says:

    Rutherford,

    Without an absolute truth, logic cannot exist. And that’s where religion comes into play. You can’t tell me that nihilism has any room for logic, at least not without completely contradicting itself.

    Even secular logic requires faith in something, even if it is faith that everything came into being because of a random occurence.

    Rutherford, that wife knows her husband is abusive and misogynistic. She doesn’t know that he will attack that particular woman, but she does know that he tends to lump all women together and he is a violent brute. So, offending him, leaving him to storm off…she doesn’t know what he’ll do to who, but she knows he has the capability of doing something bad to someone somewhere.

    Pastor Jones doesn’t know who exactly would be attacked by his Koran burning, nor does he know exactly who would be doing the attacking. It would be bigoted to assume that the Muslim community at large would do anything violent in retaliation, wouldn’t it?

    Besides, hasn’t it already been established that the radical Muslims who want to kill us don’t need any more motivation…isn’t that what makes them “radical” to begin with?

    Or are you suggesting that we are at risk from the Muslim community at large?

    I watched Rocky and Bullwinkle as a child (I’m probably not as young as you think). And her name was spelled differently, I believe.

  23. Rutherford says:

    You’re right … Boris’ sidekick spells her name Natasha.

    Even secular logic requires faith in something, even if it is faith that everything came into being because of a random occurence.

    I completely agree and I said as much in my most recent blog post.

  24. PanAm says:

    Good post and discussion, Alfie… All said, one thing that can be gathered from the post and responses is that extremists will be extreme and violent regardless of what another side or the other does or says…

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