In2 A question set ANY phobe should be able and willing to answer

on

Inspired,broken up and numbered for simplicity from the original found in the 100+ range of the comment thread here

1) So why did Mohamamed marry a 6 year old girl,

2) consummate the marriage at 9,

3) take slaves,

4) behead people,

5) steal other people’s property

6) and treat non muslims as 2nd class citizens at best.

7) And why do muslims consider him. “The perfect man”

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21 Comments

  1. Pierre says:

    Because he was the Worst Asshole who never exist in all history of Mankind.
    I think that answer well the Question.

  2. Rutherford says:

    This should be interesting. Good luck in getting any truly erudite responses.

    Note to your readers: The post to which Alfie refers had absolutely NOTHING to do with Islam or religion at all. An offhand comment I made about Mother Teresa (comment 26) pushed the original topic into oblivion and the thread became a debate about the nature of Jesus Christ as divine, or as human being. Right around comment 55, commenter Elric, who never met a Muslim-hater he didn’t like, inserted criticism of Islam into the thread. The rest is history. 🙂

  3. Rutherford says:

    LOL my prophecy is confirmed. Here is the first of the truly erudite responses!

  4. Marc says:

    I mean, would these same people be shocked to find out Jesus’s mother was a teen when God knocked her up?

  5. Alfie says:

    Seriously R that’s the last bit I’ll do over at your place on the matter.
    Marc. I’ll take any answer. Once some answers come I’ll pony up mine otherwise the discussion is done. I find it funny how people just don’t say what they pretty much believe in their hearts and put all over the web in the first place. It is all quite the howl to check out between the yard work etc. A day off humorously spent.

  6. Marc says:

    I just find people’s moral reading of the bible to be well, pathetic. Much like I find biblical literalists.

    I mean the Hebrew’s first act upon returning to Judah was to take every city they could by military conquest – the bible isn’t always intended to be a moral guide, it’s as much a historical epic. Talking about a people here who very often were plunged into slavery without any particular homeland. They had to right down their history and convey it amongst educated priests because there was no telling if they’d be moved again and lose all the contextual history a single place gives you would be lost.

  7. Rutherford says:

    LOL Holy cow! Does this make God Himself a Pedophile? (I capitalized “pedophile” out of respect.) 😉

  8. Curator says:

    A “historical epic” that many say was plagiarized from The Epic Of Gilgamesh of Babylon written a full 1000 years before events in the Bible took place.

    The similarities are undeniable.

    Christianity and Islam….*shrugs*

    Lenin was right….”religion is the opiate of the masses.”

  9. Rutherford says:

    While I am in full agreement with the Curator, the one thing that troubles me about open religious skepticism as I get older is that as undeniable as the Bible’s lack of originality is, so is the undeniability of the comfort it gives millions of people. I am increasingly finding it a struggle to balance my utter amazement at the foolishness that people are willing to believe with my empathy for people who NEED that belief system.

    Sometimes I feel like the nasty kid in the class who tells his wide eyed younger friends that there is no Santa Claus.

  10. Marc says:

    Having gotten into some biblical history, the more and more you read, the more you realize that the bible, the old testament anyways, was never intended to be taken literally. It’s like the rather bullshit stories we pass around about George Washington and Ben Franklin, which are intended to tell a moral story about how are country was founded by truth-tellers of a great intellectual curiosity and hard working philosophy, not by womanizing slave-owners.

    Some of it’s foundation stories and some of its fictionalized history as it happens. Ezekiel may not have seen a wheel of fire. However, as the Jews were exiled in a strange land with zero material comforts, it is pretty likely that a guy named Ezekiel said he saw a wheel of fire and many more people took comfort in it. And so on and so forth.

  11. Alfie says:

    Well I’m somewhat saddened nobody has answered the questions. I guess I’ll have to break down and answer.
    I find the little I’ve read on Gilgamesh to lack any great similarities to the story of Jesus. Am I missing something ?
    As for the Friends of Elric that have followed his advice and linkage. Give it a shot folks. You prattle all day on your blogs like schoolgirls but when given a chance to prove something..nada. It’s hilarious.

  12. Marc says:

    Ohhh, you’re actually asking why he did those things.

    I don’t know. Tried to read the Koran once, but I find it about 3 times as difficult as reading Leviticus.

  13. steph says:

    1) He didn’t.

    2) He didn’t but he married off his daughter to his cousin when she was just 9-years. I guess because she had had her first period and was considered a nubile woman. In Europe, the age of consent varies between 13 and 16 a In Holland and in some states of America it’s 18. You’ve got to judge a person according to their times.

    3) He was one of the first great slave emancipators, which contributed to slaves embracing Islam.

    4) He supported capital and corporal punishment – why is that a problem to his greatness.

    5) In what sense?

    6) He was remarkably tolerant towards others faiths, which was a major reason for the early spread of Islam.

    7) It would be a bit odd if they didn’t, wouldn’t it? He was definitely a great man and one of the most influential figures in history.

  14. 90 says:

    Steph you are wrong. here’s the proof….

    1)Married a 6 year old : Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236: Narrated Hisham’s father: Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married ‘Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old.

    2) Counsuated when she was Nine (Actually 8 years and 8 months because of the lunar calendar) :See above reference (Also between the ages of 6 to 8 years and 8 months many islamic scholars admit Mohammad practiced “thighing” on little Aisha, figure it out)

    3) Sahih Muslim, Book 10, Number 3901: Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah: There came a slave and pledged allegiance to Allah’s Apostle on migration; he (the Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah’s Apostlesaid: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man).

    4) Muhammad personally beheaded the Bani Qurayzah Jews http://www.islam-watch.org/SyedKamranMirza/Muhammad-Killing-Jews-of-Banu-Quraiza-and-Khaybar.htm

    5) steal other people’s property: Quran 8:69 “So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good.” (Lawlessness made lawful)

    6) non muslims as 2nd class citizens at best : Only if they paid the Jizyah, otherwise they were exterminated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

    7) And why do muslims consider him. “The perfect man” : See all of the above, to muslims this is perfection.

  15. The Red Pill says:

    Short answers.

    1) So why did Mohamamed marry a 6 year old girl,

    She was the daughter of an influential man, and the marriage helped shore up his political power base.

    2) consummate the marriage at 9,

    I don’t know why.

    3) take slaves,

    Because he could.

    4) behead people,

    No hanging trees in Arabia.

    5) steal other people’s property

    Bedouin tradition of raiding rivals/spoils of war.

    6) and treat non muslims as 2nd class citizens at best.

    Tax revenue.

    7) And why do muslims consider him. “The perfect man”

    He’s their prophet.

  16. Elric66 says:

    ****edit….just to prove you can get through avatar and all. throw some answers in next time****

  17. steph says:

    No, I’m putting forward the views accepted by academics and the majority of Muslims. The claim that she was nine when her marriage was consummated first appears some 200 years after her death in a Sunni haddith attributed to Sahih Bukhari, which was after the schism, which Aisha was largely responsible for. Every other source, including older haddith, suggest that she was much older – 19 at the youngest.

    Aisha led her force in the Battle of Camel against Ali. She lost and lived out her years in disgrace for having led Muslims in war against other Muslims. But after death, she became an icon for Sunni Muslims and a rival to Fatmia, Muhammed’s daughter, who was revered by the Shia. Fatima was 9 when her marriage was consummated. So some 200 years after her death, it was claimed that Aisha’s marriage was also consummated when she was 9 – not a very convincing argument!

  18. Alfie says:

    Well unlike some I am man enough to answer a question. I want to thank those that did show up and offered their opinions,thoughts etc.

    1) So why did Mohamamed marry a 6 year old girl,
    There seems to be differing accounts on this. It must be said though that there does seem to be some Muslims that take the age 6 as correct. Other more in depth translated looks seem to paint a picture of at least a teen as Steph alluded to. The historical perspective is that Aisha was a politically motivated bethronement.

    2) consummate the marriage at 9,
    see above. If it was truly 9 it’s pretty freaky no matter the perspective.(West, East, time, etc.)

    3) take slaves,
    This one is too easy. sovereign warring nation states just did this. It’s hardly exclusive to the Muslims

    4) behead people,
    Beheading holds a value in different cultures so choosing it as a form of punishment,execution etc. is found there. First century Jews had a thing about being hung on a tree or tree derived structure.
    Beheading at any time in history causes a lot of “holy” issues. Detachment of the soul etc.
    French Revolution, Ghurkas and Japanese treatment of Allied officers are all great searches one could undertake for yet another view.

    5) steal other people’s property
    Conquest in times leading up to today has always included taking peoples stuff

    6) and treat non muslims as 2nd class citizens at best.
    wah wah wah. I know phobes hate the moral comparisons but look at South Africa,India and the US before you cast stones. Although I don’t think taxing “unbelievers” is a great thing it is what it is. Sovereignty is a bitch sometimes folks. The puritans were having a problem with it once so they rented a boat…it was called the Mayflower. This of course leads to an example of how the people that the Mayflowers descendants interacted with made out. Double standards to back up one’s hate and fear is sad and pure folly.
    7) And why do muslims consider him. “The perfect man”
    I don’t know. Why do Buddhists think a murderer is so wise and Hindus revere cows ? Who the hell knows ?

  19. Elric66 says:

    Nice whitewash job, I commend you. I expected no different.

    And Alfie says….And yet you continue not to offer an answer. You could do so so easily. Are you a coward ? Are you afraid of what people will think of your answers ? Seriously dude, you obviously want people to take you and your opinions seriously yet when the rubber hits the road you got nothing. Sad.

  20. Elric66 says:

    Amazing. A post went through just so you can call me names. Typical
    Bullshit and if you have an ounce of honesty within you you’d admit that. I didn’t call you names either. I asked you what your hangups were and respectfully kept the list short.
    And if people cant figure out my views by now, they must be pretty friggin stupid.
    Well I’ll admit you’re spot on there. My persistence though is based purely on holding you accountable though. You seek dialog but are pretty shaky on it sometimes. This was a moment for you to step up.
    I did think it funny you whitewashed Mo’s misdeeds due to thats how people act in time of war. Never comprehending this is a founder of a religion that apologists insist is a religion of peace.
    I have not called it that. Simple mathematics though seems to bear out that a majority of it’s adherents are peaceful just as the actions of others show it to be useful for those that want to kill and terrorize.
    Even when you whitewash, you leave holes large enough to drive a bus through. 🙂
    You should probably look into the meaning,usage and history of the word.

  21. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    Well, hmm, not much left to say but I think there are a few corners left with some cobwebs…

    I’m going to skip nos 1 & 2 with the observation that I also heard that he still went off with prostitutes after becoming enlightened… as those nos seem to be more or less dealt with whatever your views on the issues they raise…

    3 – common practice and of course if you can afford a slave then they’ll ‘help out’ around the place…

    4 – well, everybody needs a hobby… alright, it seems that Mohammed did not ‘receive’ the same moral frame for forgiveness in his life as you might think Jesus did…

    5 – ‘Property is theft.’ it’s an old statement but it’ll do here – in rival societies how can you divide between what is rightfully somebody’s and something they have – be it handed down from someone else – in this maelstrom the answer of what is rightfully yours goes to – what you can keep.

    6 – This seems to be fudged badly. Alright the muslim world demands an extra tax on other faiths [hopefully of ‘The Book’] but then again the best experience of being governed by others for the jews was under the islamic rulers in the spanish peninsular… Or is it acceptable to criticize muslims for treating folk of different faiths poorly and just make sure you don’t compare their treatment to virtually any ‘christian’ country with their random pogroms? Or is that just something which is a bit irksome to consider?

    7 – he was the one Allah decided to reveal truths to and also show why he was allowed into paradise – ergo you can rely on Mohammed’s path to be able to get you into paradise as well [as long as you don’t look to closely at the small print…]

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