Dhimmi ? Dummy ? Thinker ! An Answer to Elric66…

rodin_thinker_detail.jpgThe following are from the thread for this post.

31 Elric66

Of course I could ask you what should be done to perserve the West.

32 in2thefray

I was asking you a series of questions and offering you a chance to clearly state your position. Methinks ye dodge now. And let’s add another question. Since you are so well read on the Quran/Koran do you accept that there are two distinct definitions / applications of jihad ?

33 Elric66

I accept the fact when jihad is mentioned in the Qur’an and hadiths, over 90 percent is in the context of warfare.“I want to know what should be done to the billion Muslims,the terrorists, the mosques all of it. Should we gather up all the Qurans and burn them ? Should we shutter up all the mosques and deport all those claiming to be followers of Islam ?”ban Islamic immigration, Ban Islam in the West, burn the mosques down. Deport all Muslims who still claim Islam as their “religion”. Get off all foreign energy and cut off all ties to Islamic nations. Build a prison in Alaska to hold all convicted terrorists since death is too good for them. I forget anything?

Here are my answers…As for the preservation of the West by the end of this post my opinion on that will be clear.

Ban Islamic immigration...” The ideals of the West and especially those of the United States would vanish with an outright ban of any population group. The control and quota of people coming to America is not beyond the realm of precedent. It is something that should be looked at in the whole picture of immigration. It is not a good idea though to exert our foreign / domestic policy fears the immigration policy. The only other thorn in the side of this is how both unenforceable and unnecessary this is. The ability to surpass customs on basis of religion is pretty easy. The actual numbers of Muslim immigration is not impressive in numbers.

burnnazcrop.jpgBan Islam,burn Mosques down… ” Well this is just crazy for anyone to actually and honestly invoke this thinking in the hope to preserve Western Civ. A nation founded on those pursuing religious freedom yet banning a faith ? Well the Mormons, Shakers and others were roundly castigated by the general public. This is sad given the basic tenets of Christian ideology . Let’s consider the thought of a government banning a religion and the spirit of America. This seem a little contrary to anyone ? The fact that the overwhelming majority of Muslims in America are law abiding means nothing I guess. As for burning Mosques down. This is the ultimate in Orwellian fascism. I can’t imagine how anyone expects to be taken serious over their concerns when they somehow are willing to embrace this level of uber Nazi tactic.

Deport all Muslims who still claim Islam as their religion…” American history has some line items where groups have been singled out and removed. Either through deportation or repatriation people have been removed. The US also has a history of cowardly allowing people to go face death elsewhere. This latter decision was definitely impacted by the faith of those involved and it wasn’t Islam.

Get off foreign energy… ” This is extremely narrow in vision. The foreign part is good word use. The majority of US energy is not Islamic in source. Venezuela,Brazil,Mexico,Canada and our own backyard provides the majority of our energy. “… “cut off all ties with Islamic nations“. There are a number of nations that deal quite well with us. They have bilateral trade relations and have actually provided intelligence in our efforts to confront terrorism. To abolish this is just stupid.

Build a prison in Alaska… ” Well at least you only want to imprison terrorists. The imprisonment of terrorists is a good thing.

Some history lessons:

The Nisei. Actually stepped up large and served their country well. By country I mean the USA and that was in the face of the shameful imprisonment of US citizens secondary to their nationality.

As for the immigration,refusal etc let’s not forget our history in the case of some Jews trying to find a better life. SS St.Louis

So the fact that you and others are willing to embrace fascism in order to preserve the nation is sad,wrong and so much more. Blind mindless hate is never an answer people should champion. Zealots of any stripe tend to be a disservice to humanity.

As for the steps America can take to keep it’s citizens safe and it’s ideals intact. Fight extremism where it is with the allies that honesty provides. The extremists are a danger to all and losing sight of that is counterproductive. Energy independence is for other reasons as is the overall assurance of our national sovereignty. This is not a reason to embrace isolationism or ignorance. Asserting our sovereignty and the culture of America is key. Religious freedom does not excuse a Baptist or a Muslim from obeying the laws of the country. This is how it should be. The Constitution is a great thing when we champion the spirit of all of it. Cherry picking and misinterpreting parts of it (or words from Holy books) is not the way to live.

I don’t know if any further dialog between us could be productive. I2TF

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108 Comments

  1. BDE says:

    As per the gist of your responses, it has become exceedingly obvious that Elric is either;

    a) delusional
    b) a bigot
    c) not serious when it comes to his responses
    d) some combo of a,b and c

    To rail against the threat to Western civilization from Islam while suggesting the solution is to dismantle the basic tenents of Western civilization is either chutzpah at its best or madness at its worst.

  2. Elric66 says:

    “Cherry picking and misinterpreting parts of it (or words from Holy books) is not the way to live.”

    I guess Mohammed “cherry picked” as he carried the sword for Islam huh? I guess the caliphates that followed also “cherry picked”

  3. BDE says:

    Elric,

    Keep on ranting. Nobody here is listening to you.

    Try and form a cohesive argument to support your bigotry and hatred and perhaps it will get some attention. Continual non sequitur posts will get you nowhere.

  4. Elric66 says:

    Your answer is in comment 5. Examples are not an issue for me as I’ve always said there is extremism. I also have said there are peaceful Muslims that are positive players in the world. It’s not all about examples to buoy one side or the other.

  5. in2thefray says:

    Elric you fail to counter or redeem your bigotry and mindless hate as directly linked to this post. You surge into the juvenile behavior of presenting news stories that have nothing to do with this post other than to highlight your hate.The rampage of highlighting events though true are representative of a minority element. The bigger picture is that Britain is quite capable of tackling their extremist problems. The concept of multiculturalism which I’ve myself spoken against is being put on notice every day in Europe and a solution will come. It will not be sharia at the base of Big Ben either. The video you were curious if I’d allow is by Pat Robertsons worldwide reporter. The story is a good one and the best part is how the home secretary told the radical douche everyone was allowed in any area. Soon these areas will face the same scrutiny and eventual assaults by law enforcement that ghettoes and separatist areas everywhere (even America) get.(btw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xn-KsSX_0us&eurl)
    You have at least one compatriot at weaselzippers that applauds your f*&^ing with me. I assure you you have no affect on me whatsoever. You were allowed to comment here and engage in a dialogue. For the most part you did so in a respectable manner. Given the opportunity to present the solution to the issue though you offered up fascism.You offered this as a solution to save the Western world. I stressed to you to take your time and be serious. In issuing the response you did you painted the picture the Muslim extremists want. I dare say the blogs you enjoy do more for the radical cause then those who are out to deal with it. You and yours will of course deny this but I tell you the truth. So in the end instead of possibly pointing out the problems in an honest manner,of playing a part in searching for real solutions and garnering allies of all stripes you earned the title of bigot and inconvenienced me to the point of clicking a couple of moderation keys. Use your blog for your rants.Your time here will be limited to discussion only.

  6. Elric66 says:

    Really?

    I showed links of mass Islamic immigration to Europe and the dangers of it. I showed that in “moderate” Maylasia, sharia law rules and oppresses non Muslims. You dont want to face that fact. You failed to allow the video of the Brits assessment of Islam in the UK.
    video is in the comment and it’s in the eyes of the beholder

    You rather call me a bigot as if its an insult but fail to call out Islam as a bigoted ideology. Why is it ok for Islam to be bigoted but not for non Muslims?
    I calls ’em likes I see ’em. Also others have seen and declared the bigot tag long before me. You embrace being a bigot as if it were synonymous to something positive.I’ve clearly spoken out against illegal activity,I’ve commented on activity that is out of line,I’ve consistently declared my position of it’s the isms and ists. You don’t agree and that’s cool get over it though.Lastly 2 wrongs don’t make a right.If you think you have a role being Islams mirror have at it.Muslims and only Muslims will save islam and themselves and contrary to the thoughts you and others hold of it’s rise I assure you and it is sounding the horn of it’s demise.

    I also see you failed to answer if Mohammed “cherry picked” quotes from the Qur’an as he rampaged through the Christian/Jewish and pagan Middle East. Did he? yes or no?
    Oh thats right. The founder of Islam means nothing, right? Even though Muslims see the warlord/pedophile “prophet” as the perfect man.
    I’ve commented many times about the religion and it’s prophet.I’m not a Muslim so I don’t really care

    And whose ranting? I wasnt aware that quoting the media was “ranting”.
    It’s not the method or the resource used. constant repetitive stating of that which is known is a rant

    It is ironic that you are against multiculturalism and political correctness but that is exactly what holds you back from seeing Islam for what it is. No nation is obligated to allow an ideology that is a poison to its culture.
    It is exactly because I am honestly against pc and multiculturalism as it is enacted that I abide by the mantra of Sovereignty Matters. This allows the nations to uphold their laws and set their course. It allows them to see multiculturalism as a cultural appreciation kind of thing yet being united in a monoculturalist state.England for example has the right to stress Britishness (and it will soon) just as Saudia Arabia has a right ot exclude non Muslims from Mecca.

  7. Elric66 says:

    Didnt like my rebutal? 🙂

    in2thefray saysDidn’t think it was appropriate to let you ramble about pride in being intolerant.Next time I guess I should let that through. As for the rest I just didn’t see the point since I don’t have the time to constantly reeducate you but I’ll throw one last one at you for free. I wouldn’t go to Saudi Arabia. I still have to be honest to my views and let them do the silly things they do (Sovereignty Matters) . think about it. If they were good Muslims doing the whole dawa thing they’d have tours of Mecca for all people except during the Haj. Instead they isolate themselves and relegate themselves to “it’s my place and you can’t see it”! Seriously Elric. If you have a question ask it. If you have a comment on a post make it. If you want to change my opinion or run my blog-forget it.

  8. Tyrone says:

    KABUL, Afghanistan (AP) — An Afghan court on Tuesday sentenced a 23-year-old journalism student to death for distributing a paper he printed off the Internet that three judges said violated the tenets of Islam, an official said.
    The three-judge panel sentenced Sayad Parwez Kambaksh to death for distributing a paper that humiliated Islam, said Fazel Wahab, the chief judge in the northern province of Balkh, where the trial took place. Wahab did not preside over the trial.

    But this Afgan government was democratically elected. This must be the will of the people. Goes to show that democracy and Islam are like oil and water.

    On intolerence. Why do you chide me on being intolerent? I am intolerent of Islam, Islam is intolerent of everything not Islamic. Why dont you chide Islam instead?

    “Sovereignty Matters”

    Yes it does. Thats why I want to protect it from Islam. The only nation I can think that survived Islam was Spain and it took kicking out all the Muslims to do so. Nevermind the fact that Spain was conquered by Islam 400 years before the Crusades were called up.

  9. Elric66 says:

    MONTREAL – In a previously undisclosed interview with CSIS investigators, alleged al-Qaeda sleeper agent Adil Charkaoui described how members of Montreal’s Arab community were recruiting people for jihad before 9/11.
    “Charkaoui explained that many are called but few are chosen. It’s a funnel effect,” according to a summary of the April, 2001, interview with the Canadian Security Intelligence Service, just added to the court record.

    Im shocked. I thought Muslims were just as loyal as non Muslims.
    You twist or miss the reality. Many are approached. A number show interest. But an absolute minority do the full monty. Why why why-How how how do you not get that ?! You say I’m missing the point .

  10. BDE says:

    Tyrone,

    What nation called “Spain” was there at the time? None. The Iberian peninsula was conquered by Muslims, not by Islam itself.

    BTW You do understand that during the Islamic period in Iberia, the region was a beacon of light in the sea of darkness that was Europe in the Middle Ages.

    Oh, and the crusades were originally directed east towards Jerusalem, not west towards Iberia.

    Why is it bigots are always light on facts and knowledge of history?
    Of course war is the ultimate failing of humanity. The Crusades in particular had many atrocities on both sides.

  11. Elric66 says:

    Ironic you call me a bigot when you allow BDE to comment. Just ask him about the Zionist Jews. You want to hear real bigotry, get him to open up. Is the Qur’an bigoted?
    Well if I ever post on Zionism I can assure you you won’t like it. If or more appropriately when I post about Jewish people or specifically citizens of Israel and someone chimes in out of line we’ll see.There is a difference between a Zionist and a Jew. As for my opinion of a book I don’t follow or as previously mentioned don’t care about I don’t see how I’m to offer an opinion.I will say the verses are wide open for abuse and use of those that want to be bigots,killers and sexists. It is also wide open to those that want to be charitable,dedicated and kind. The book never walks up to someone and offers a gun,bomb or sword. The book is an inanimate object that can’t do anything. The failing of people be it Muslims,Jews, Christians,Nazis or Communists to rise above an inanimate object and do the right thing has nothing to do with the books.

  12. Elric66 says:

    “What nation called “Spain” was there at the time? None. The Iberian peninsula was conquered by Muslims, not by Islam itself.

    BTW You do understand that during the Islamic period in Iberia, the region was a beacon of light in the sea of darkness that was Europe in the Middle Ages.

    Oh, and the crusades were originally directed east towards Jerusalem, not west towards Iberia.

    Why is it bigots are always light on facts and knowledge of history?”

    Too funny. LOL
    Yet true

  13. Elric66 says:

    “Of course war is the ultimate failing of humanity.”

    Yeah we failed when we defeated nazi germany and imperial Japan.

    “The Crusades in particular had many atrocities on both sides.”

    Again with equating Crusaders with Jihadists. If it wasnt for the Crusades, Europe would have been conquered by Islam.
    The Crusades were an invasion not an effort to stop expansion.As for comparing WWII to the Crusades you set a false comparison;however, yeah killing people,destroying cities is a failure.

  14. Elric66 says:

    “You twist or miss the reality. Many are approached. A number show interest. But an absolute minority do the full monty. Why why why-How how how do you not get that ?! You say I’m missing the point .”

    All these recruitment in the mosques and the Muslim community is basically silent. Nevermind the fact the recruitments are done in “house of Worships”. Where is the outrage in the Muslim community? You miss the point. You fail to see the forest through the trees. And what “minority”? Is lets say 10 percent small enough for you? What percentage would be acceptable for you?
    It may surprise you to know that I agree in the infiltration by law enforcement of houses of worship. That’s pretty un 1st Amendment of me but throughout history “houses of worship” have been misused.

  15. Elric66 says:

    “Yet true”

    Not really excpet the part about the Crusades starting in the Middle East. My point was that we didnt start the war, Islam did. I pointed out that Muslims were pushing and conquering parts of Europe well before the Crusades were called.

    “As for my opinion of a book”

    It should if its the source of a violent ideology.

    “I will say the verses are wide open for abuse and use of those that want to be bigots,killers and sexists”

    Not if the founder displayed those traits. Mohammed displayed all of them so how can they be interupted any other way? If the “perfect man” Displayed them, why wouldnt any Muslims striving to be the best Muslim he could be?
    I don’t have the time to explain it to you

  16. Elric66 says:

    “The Crusades were an invasion not an effort to stop expansion”

    They were to reclaim land conquered by Muslims and yes to stop Islam from pushing into Europe.

    “As for comparing WWII to the Crusades you set a false comparison”

    Both were to fight a violent ideology
    Actually the Crusades had a lot to do with creating a violent ideology

    “That’s pretty un 1st Amendment of me but throughout history “houses of worship” have been misused.”

    Again with equating Islam with all other religions.
    No equating that throughout history assorted scumbags hide places to do the voodoo that they do do

    “Zionism I can assure you you won’t like it.”

    I figured you for an anti-Zionist
    I’m pretty much against all isms and ists

  17. Elric66 says:

    “Actually the Crusades had a lot to do with creating a violent ideology”
    The Crusader especially the Franks killed many many Christians on their march

    What ideology would that be? And do you think it was wrong for Europe to fight back against the Caliphate or should Europe just conceded?
    Papal Catholicism

    “No equating that throughout history assorted scumbags hide places to do the voodoo that they do do”

    Crusaders were not scumbags.
    I was speaking of Hitler in a beer hall radical Imams in Mosques and people like Koresh ,Jones and Moon in places of worship

    “I’m pretty much against all isms and ists”

    So you are against a Jewish state? Im not surprised
    There’s a difference in believing in the sovereignty of Isarael and embracing Zionism

    On another note, is it ok to be bigoted against a violent, intolerant, bigoted ideology or should one be tolerant of it?
    Straw man ! The thing to be is a human who stands for what is right. You have said many things that were out of line but you dance around the fact that you and yours would ultimately have to kill people who do the 5x prayers/day but don’t do the violence thing in an effort to remove/isolate Islam. Doing so only gives peaceful Muslims the reason to go to the dark side. I am for leaving the peaceful ones be. I talk to them,they talk to me. Our kids grow up. Together we benefit when only the extremists get whacked.

  18. Elric66 says:

    “The Crusader especially the Franks killed many many Christians on their march”

    I asked what ideology they created
    answered
    “I was speaking of Hitler in a beer hall radical Imams in Mosques and people like Koresh ,Jones and Moon in places of worship”

    Not arguing that
    is that the same as agreeing ?

    “There’s a difference in believing in the sovereignty of Isarael and embracing Zionism”

    Same thing
    Not really but let’s just add that to the things you and I disagree on

    “Straw man !”

    No its not.

    “would ultimately have to kill people who do the 5x prayers/day but don’t do the violence thing in an effort to remove/isolate Islam.”

    Reallly?
    Yeah really. Think about it you’re a law abiding citizen, paying your taxes, going to church you have your kid in youth basketball. Suddenly the Government (or vigilantes I don’t know the preference of the phobes) comes to your house to forcibly remove you because of the faith you follow. You don’t think the response to that might be violent ?

    “I am for leaving the peaceful ones be.”

    How do you know who the ones that want to live in peace and assimilate?
    They shooting,shouting or otherwise acting in an unlawful manner ?

    “I’m pretty much against all isms and ists”

    Isnt that bigoted of you?
    That’s the Thinker ! part of DDT. perhaps you don’t see it or perhaps you enjoy haranguing me.I hope if you ask your questions with any seriousness you’ve thought of the answers I’ve given. I’m off now

  19. Elric66 says:

    “Papal Catholicism”

    Should Europe just conceded to the Caliphate?
    Read up on the early Christian Church and how Papal Catholicism became a very real “ism” As for any nation/nation state throughout history including today rolling over my answer is no

  20. Elric66 says:

    “answered”

    Really its an ideology?
    yeah Papal Catholicism as it functioned in the early days was very much an ideology
    “is that the same as agreeing ?”

    Agreeing that the men you mentioned were scumbags? Yes. I would have added Mohammed as well. Would you?

    “Not really but let’s just add that to the things you and I disagree on”

    Pretty big list

    “You don’t think the response to that might be violent ?”

    Depends on the faith now wouldnt it?
    No. Although I find it remarkable that Japanese Americans and European Juews took going to the camps as well as they did Americans railed against the Quartering Act,taxes forced busing and school desegregation

    “They shooting,shouting or otherwise acting in an unlawful manner ?”

    Not really. Jihad is more than blowing up stuff. Would you concider a group that uses lawsuits to intimidate people from reporting suspicious activity peaceful? An enemy?
    You’ve as much as said the other jihad didn’t exist. Lawsuits can be an annoyance but are they the enemy ? As a right of center kind of guy who hates the litigation based nanny state I’d say they are wrong but not enemies to be slain. I think the rule of law should find such lawsuits without merit

    “perhaps you don’t see it or perhaps you enjoy haranguing me.”

    I just pointed out the hypocrisy of your statement.

    I don’t see the hypocrisy
    “As for any nation/nation state throughout history including today rolling over my answer is no’

    Good. Nice for you to admitted that Crusades was a noble cause. Am I saying that bad things werent done during the Crusades. No. What war was every conducted where some people didnt do bad things? But to compare what the Caliphate did compared to the Crusades is ludicrious. Just look up what the Caliphate did when it invaded the Hindu lands. It makes Nazi germany look like saints.
    I never said he Crusades were a noble cause. I believe the Crusades were a waste of men and treasure that were instigated not due to the indignation of Muslim control of Jerusalem but the propping up of the new “ism” of Popes Gregory and Urban.There action to create the “modern” Christian (Papal Catholic) theocracy led to many atrocities. Their first target btw was not Islam but the Orthodox Church. (other Christians oops) As for comparing atrocities and grading them that’s not what I’m about. Atrocity is wrong no matter who is doing it.

  21. BDE says:

    Elric,

    What do you want me to say about Zionist Jews? I’m not a big fan of anyone who ascribes to an ideology that promotes a greater set of rights for one group of people based on some defining characteristic.

    That is what modern Zionism is. An ideology that demands a homeland and superior rights for members of one religious group at the expense of others.

    edit

    I am not. I am a rational human being who refuses to buy into primitive tribalism and xenophobia.
    I2tf asks :I have a question though….Do you believe there is a difference between a Zionist and a Jewish person ??

  22. Elric66 says:

    “You’ve as much as said the other jihad didn’t exist.”

    I said that over 90 percent of jihad in Islamic text are in the context of war.

    “I don’t see the hypocrisy”
    No, I guess you wouldnt. I guess its ok to hate Communism but not Islam.
    Well I do hate Islamism

    “I never said he Crusades were a noble cause.”

    I guess you wouldnt. Better to let Islam keep the lands it stole from the kaffirs, right?
    Well let’s see. Prior to the unneeded arrival of the Crusaders the native Christian population were alive and the holy sites functioning. Post all the Crusades the native Christians were killed and the holy sites destroyed.In the then “Christian” world massive amounts of people were killed by crusaders.Papal theocracy ran amok over the Christian faith and essentially provided an oppressive theocracy ruling the Christian world.I’m not seeing the nobility.Ironically the latter Muslim leaders were quite possibly “created” by the acts of the crusades.

  23. BDE says:

    I2TF;

    Most decidedly there is a difference between a Zionist and a Jewish person. One is an ideology, the other a religious persuasion.

    Not all white South Africans were believers in apartheid. Not all 1930s Germans were Nazis. Not all Jews are believers in modern Zionism. Hence the vibrant movement within Israel of those who reject policies of legal Jewish superiority over Arabs.

    What the tricky Ziocons have done is try to inextricably link Judaism and Zionism such that criticism of Zionism becomes anti-semitism by (their) definition.

  24. Elric66 says:

    “Well I do hate Islamism”

    Why is it wrong to hate one ideology but not another?
    What ?
    “Well let’s see. Prior to the unneeded arrival of the Crusaders the native Christian population were alive and the holy sites functioning. Post all the Crusades the native Christians were killed and the holy sites destroyed.In the then “Christian” world massive amounts of people were killed by crusaders.Papal theocracy ran amok over the Christian faith and essentially provided an oppressive theocracy ruling the Christian world.I’m not seeing the nobility.Ironically the latter Muslim leaders were quite possibly “created” by the acts of the crusades.”

    So its ok for Muslims to take non Muslim lands but not ok for the non Muslims to try to take them back?
    I didn’t say that but I will say the Papal state of Europe was not sovereign of the lands in question

    The church was destroyed by the Persians in 614 and soon afterwards partly reconstructed; in 1010 it was destroyed by the Caliph Hakim of Egypt and rebuilt in 1048 by Byzantine emperor Constantine Monomachus; in 1144 the Crusaders rebuilt the entire church, put it under a single roof, and made many alterations and additions. Over the following centuries the church fell into disrepair.
    1010 AD was BEFORE the 1st Crusade and thats just one example.
    Yeah but I ‘m not going to delve into a battle of endless comparative examples. The truth is the tit for tat thing will not do much. I concede there are ample examples on both sides

  25. BDE says:

    A little more colour on the destruction of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Of course, Elric prefers to paint it in hiw own virulently anti-Islam light as though Muhammad himself commanded its destruction!

    From wikipedia;

    “This building was damaged by fire in 614 when the Persians under Khosrau II invaded Jerusalem and captured the Cross. In 630, Emperor Heraclius marched triumphantly into Jerusalem and restored the True Cross to the rebuilt Church of the Holy Sepulchre. Under the Muslims it remained a Christian church. The early Muslim rulers protected the city’s Christian sites, prohibiting their destruction and their use as living quarters. In 966 the doors and roof were burnt during a riot.

    On October 18, 1009, under the so-called “mad” Fatimid caliph Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah, orders for the complete destruction of the Church where carried out. It is believed that Al-Hakim “was aggrieved by the scale of the Easter pilgrimage to Jerusalem, which was caused specially by the annual miracle of the Holy Fire with the Sepulchre. The measures against the church were part of a more general campaign against Christian places of worship in Palestine and Egypt, which involved a great deal of other damage: Adhemar of Chabannes recorded that the church of St George at Lydda ‘with many other churches of the saints’ had been attacked, and the ‘basilica of the Lord’s Sepulchre destroyed down to the ground’. …The Christian writer Yahya ibn Sa’id reported that everything was razed ‘except those parts which were impossibe to destroy or would have been too difficult to carry away’.”[3] The Church’s foundations were hacked down to bedrock. The Edicule and the east and west walls and the roof of the cut-rock tomb it encased were destroyed or damaged (contemporary accounts vary), but the north and south walls were likely protected by rubble from further damage. The “mighty pillars resisted destruction up to the height of the gallery pavement, and are now effectively the only remanent of the fourth-century buildings.”[3] Some minor repairs were done to the section believed to be the tomb of Jesus almost immediately after 1009, but a true attempt at restoration would have to wait for decades.[3]

    European reaction was far-reaching, and often irrational. For example, Clunaic monk Raoul Glaber blamed the Jews, with the result that Jews were expelled from Limoges and other French towns. Ultimately, this destruction provided an impetus to the later Crusades.”

  26. Elric66 says:

    “What ?”

    Why?

    “I didn’t say that but I will say the Papal state of Europe was not sovereign of the lands in question”

    Neither was the Muslims when they went rampaging across the Middle East, North Africa, India, Europe etc.

    “Yeah but I ‘m not going to delve into a battle of endless comparative examples.”

    You made the claim that all was hunky dory until the big bad Crusaders came marching through, not me.

  27. in2thefray says:

    @BDE thanks for getting back. I’m liking the answer and the added comparisons.

  28. Elric66 says:

    So you going to ask him if he backs Hamas?

  29. Elric66 says:

    Early Muslim History: According to Muslim tradition, Jerusalem is Islam’s third holiest city (after Mecca and Medina), and the site of Mohammed’s ascent to heaven. Mohammed and his followers initially turned to Jerusalem in prayer and although the direction was later changed towards Mecca, the sanctity of Jerusalem continued to be stressed in Islamic tradition. The capture of Jerusalem in 638, during the reign of the second Caliph Omar, brought the city into the “dar al-Islam” the jurisdiction of Islam. Omar ordered the clearing of an area of the Temple Mount — the site of the ancient Jewish Temple and considered the location of Mohammed’s ascent to heaven — and the building of a temporary wooden mosque. In 691, Caliph Abd al-Malik built the Dome of the Rock, one of the glories of Islam. In the centuries following the Muslim reconquering of Jerusalem from the Crusaders in 1187 there was much building activity around the Temple Mount area and in the entire old city. The sanctity of Jerusalem in Islamic religious tradition has continued throughout the 20th century.

  30. Elric66 says:

    The homes come with separate living rooms for men and women. Streets are named Bashir, Zafrulla Khan, and Abdus Salam. And every house has a view of the mosque, visible from miles around.

    This is Peace Village, a residential housing development in a Toronto suburb that caters to Muslims — but is open to anyone dhimmis.

    It grew around a small mosque that sprouted in the early 1990s in a corn field along a desolate highway in this nondescript suburb of Toronto, Canada’s largest metropolis with five million residents, where one in two people are immigrants.

    ……Every kitchen is equipped with an extra powerful ventilation system to help clear the air when preparing extra spicy or smoky ethnic dishes.

    And homes are designed with two living rooms — one for men, and another for women.

    A house here costs about 500,000 dollars (Canadian, US or 345,000 euros) and strong demand has forced developers to add a second phase, now under construction.

    “It have given true meaning to (Canada’s) multiculturalism concept,” (Actually, no it doesn’t -ed.) said the developer Ahmad, photographs of himself with leading Canadian politicians littering his office.

    Wow, segregated living rooms. And this is in Canada. I guess it would be “peace” village since its all Muslim.

  31. BDE says:

    Elric,

    Why no post on the segregation of the sexes that occurs in orthodox Judaism?

    Is that more of your hypocrisy rearing its ugly head?

  32. in2thefray says:

    I saw the story some time ago about the development and almost did a post on it.
    1.BDE’s question is a good one.
    2.I actually think that allowing such focused development is wrong. In fact in the States it would be illegal.
    3. The fact that any given group choose to live in a community whilst obeying the laws of the state and capitalism is something I accept. I do think it does a disservice to all though when it happens in residential settings.
    4. Here’s a question for you. What is your opinion of Chinatowns , Little Italy and the Confederate flag ?

  33. Elric66 says:

    Would it be ok if they had seperate rooms for blacks, whites?

    1. I know of no all Jewish community that segergates men and women in their own homes.
    That’s a bit of a herring isn’t it. There are any number of people of all religions that have dedicated parts of their homes to certain things. Therefore the B/W thing also forfeits. This is people using their own choice on their own property.

    2. For now
    And it’s up to the citizens to assure that the applicable laws stay on the books and equitably applied to all.

    3. My guess is they practice Shaira financial practices not capitalism.
    They probably do but that’s not the point really. The point is do private property rights apply to all ?

    4. My opinion of them. Pretty hypocritical when if you had “whitey town” it would be viewed as a white supremacist town. The flag I could care less. I do agree with Huckabee that its state issue and I dont think its really a flag of racism. I dont personally own one.
    Nice full answer.Of course any number of communities across America could be called “Whitey Town” Chinatown and Little Italy are actually great examples of multiculturalism working. It’s like Disney. I personnally have always been hassle free in Boston’s Chinatown and North End (use to be old school Italian) Southie and Roxbury have given me personal experience in racial hate.
    So you going to ask your friend BDE if he supports Hamas?
    You’ve harped on it quite enough. One I don’t imagine BDE would see eye to eye on a lot of issues yet he seems willing to come here civil enough. If he ever comes here and cares to share something so be it.

  34. Elric66 says:

    1. So you cant name one community that does? I thought so.
    You’re missing the point and being intentionally antagonistic
    2. True. But once Muslims get a majority, you can kiss that goodbye.

    3. You mentioned capitalism. I pointed out that Muslims if given a choice will practice Shairia. Amazing isnt it? Islam affects every aspect of a Muslims life.
    Not really. Also not that I am by any means advocating or supportive of Sharia debt free living isn’t such a bad thing.

    4. Name one town that is called “Whitety Town” in some offical capacity like “China Town”
    I don’t imagine the Chinese people are the ones that made the name/signs
    So you dont want to know if he supports an Islamic terror group? Wow. You dont seem to mind asking me questions about my beliefs. Thats ok. That you dont want to ask him says alot.
    My questions to you were directly linked to the discussion at hand. Again with the childish antagonism “That you dont want to ask him says alot.”. I’ve been incredibly fair to having a discussion with you

  35. Elric66 says:

    The Iowa Legislature started just over a week ago and some people were upset before the first issue was every addressed.
    When the session began, a Muslim Imam began the prayer in the Iowa Legislature. This is where the controversy begins.

    The prayer asked of “Victory over those who disbelieve,” and “Protection from the great Satan” among other things.

    Im sure you will defend this in some way too.

  36. Elric66 says:

    1. No Im not
    Yeah you are but we’ll stop the pre school commenting
    2. Couldnt deny it, huh?
    Didn’t think it was necessary to state that the US will not be an Islamic majority nation-ever
    3. Get used to it when they get their way
    I prefer to get used to enforcing the law
    4. I didnt say they did
    so your point is
    Im not antagonizing. I find it weird that you want to get inside my head but not his. Not that I mind, I am not ashamed in what I believe.
    It’s a discussion not analysis. Don’t be paranoid. For the record “Nice full answer” was kind of a compliment and a hint to agreement

  37. in2thefray says:

    Context Context Context

    “I seek refuge in God against the accursed Satan in the name of God, most gracious, most merciful,” Khan said in English. Khan made no specific mention of the war in Iraq or foreign affairs, but he called God the “master of the day of judgment” and asked for “victory over those who disbelieve.”
    “As we begin this new year…in a world with trials and tribulations, we ask you to open the hearts of our legislators and policy makers to make the right decisions for the people of Iowa,” Khan said. “…We ask that you guide our legislators and give them the wisdom and knowledge to tackle the difficult problems that face us today in order to eliminate the senseless crimes on humanity. Help them, Lord, to solve the complicated problems in the State of Iowa so that we can be a model to the world.”
    Khan’s prayer lasted about four minutes and he closed with a few words for legislators.
    “On behalf of the Muslim community of Des Moines and Iowa, I wish you all the success in this year for making the right decisions for us,” Khan said

    source
    Was there a hidden message ?The article seems to report on the evangelical pastor’s impressions and that’s sad. Should the state of Iowa pay attention to the actions of all it’s citizens in the area of criminal activity ? Yes
    [pressed the wrong button] The prayer is open to interpretation by those that want to find a problem.I would ask if the legislature would allow such a God themed prayer by a Christian leader ?

  38. Elric66 says:

    “victory over those who disbelieve.” “Protection from the great Satan”
    What part of that dont you understand?
    1. the prayer was given in English. 2. plenty of Christians speak of Satan.Implying the “Great Satan” in this case is intended to mean the US is paranoia. 3. Over those that disbelieve can apply to faithless people as well as the “infidels” of the “people of the book” category. I don’t feel threatened by this and btw the Muslim population of all of Iowa is less than 80k. I imagine it’s far less.

  39. Elric66 says:

    1. It was first given in Arabic

    2. He said “The Great Stan” which is what the Islamic world calls the US

    3. It applies to every non Muslims and of course victory means an Islamic world. Yeah I would feel threatened that an Iman would make that threat in a statehouse. 80k? So? It took 19 to pull off 9-11.
    “I seek refuge in God against the accursed Satan in the name of God, most gracious, most merciful,” Khan said in English. Khan made no specific mention of the war in Iraq or foreign affairs, but he called God the “master of the day of judgment” and asked for “victory over those who disbelieve.”

  40. BDE says:

    Elric,

    If you have questions for me, direct them to me not through an intermediary. Otherwise you appear a coward.

    I was kind enough to respond to one indirect question of yours. If you want more answers (I don’t think you really do; I think you just come here to moan about what you perceive as the mortal danger of Islam to the West), have the balls to ask the questions yourself but also have the decency to answer the questions I have posed to you.

  41. Elric66 says:

    And he called Allah for victory over the kaffir. Your point?
    The prayer in question from the source is in the comments

  42. Elric66 says:

    BDE,

    Pretty ironic since you fail to mention what ID you went under in the yahoo message boards. So until you do, I am not obligated to speak to you directly nor answer any of your questions. Nevermind the fact that your first post directed to me was to wish I would die. I guess thats your definition of “civil”.

  43. Elric66 says:

    “The prayer in question from the source is in the comments”

    He called for victory over the Kaffir, not to live side by side with the kaffir. Not that I am blaming him, he is after all a Muslim and just following what the Qur’an teaches.
    Cut and paste that part Elric otherwise let it go.

  44. Elric66 says:

    What the Qur’an part?
    Oh now I get it. kaffir =an Islamic term usually translated as unbeliever similar to the Christian word Pagan or Jewish word gentile.Yeah I’m not buying that was the message

  45. Elric66 says:

    Of course you wont buy it. You refuse to see Islam for what it is. Thats why you deleted my post on Aposty Laws that are referenced in the Qur’an and Hadiths. At least I can reference the Qur’an and the hadiths to support my view. That would probably explain why you refuse to judge the Islamic ideology by looking at Mohammed, for then you would have to change your opinion. Its ironic because I actually show more respect for Islam than you do. 🙂I2TF says…italic emphasis mine since that’s funny

  46. in2thefray says:

    This deserves a comment space of it’s own.
    Let’s accept for the moment that you reference the Quran (as opposed to selected sections presented by others) and show respect to Islam. I don’t and for good reason.
    I don’t care if it exists or vanishes from the planet.I don’t care what the books of Islam state since they don’t matter to me. All that matters is action and here we go again.
    The criminal actions of those who state they are obeying the books doesn’t make me rant about the books. It makes me aim. Those that obey the books and don’t commit criminal acts are not my enemy and in some cases are friends, acquaintances or at the very least a fellow human being slogging through the days.

  47. Elric66 says:

    Its funny? I actually will respect Muslims enough to say what Mohammed taught and how he lived is important to Muslims. You say it doesnt matter. So who shows more respect, hmmmm?
    mmmmmaybe you should convert.

  48. Elric66 says:

    “I don’t care if it exists or vanishes from the planet.I don’t care what the books of Islam state since they don’t matter to me. All that matters is action and here we go again.”

    It matters to Muslims so it should matter to you.Since I’m not a Muslim uhh NO This is where Muslims have justified jihad through the ages. Muslims believe the Qur’an is the word of Allah. This is why they riot if its claimed a Qur’an is flushed or knocked out of somebody’s hand. You main problem is you look at Islam through a Western perspective. You have to understand the Islamic mindset to truly understand Islam. Thats what I had to do otherwise Islam just doesnt make sense.Little tip for you. Mohammed is not a prophet for me. Islam as well as Mormonism have rewritten the Scripture I follow. So I don’t really care about either. I can for many reasons live side by side with Muslims and I can vote for a Mormon.

  49. Elric66 says:

    “mmmmmaybe you should convert.”

    Maybe you should actually learn about Islam. Amazing though, isnt it? A bigot actually will show Muslims enough respect to actually say their prophet actually matters to them? 🙂 I’ve never said he doesn’t matter to them-just not me.

  50. Elric66 says:

    “Since I’m not a Muslim uhh NO”

    Then you will never understand Islamic terrorism
    more worried about the terrorism than the Islamic. This makes me the bad guy
    “I can for many reasons live side by side with Muslims and I can vote for a Mormon.”

    Thats because you arent a Muslim.
    But you’ve always said it is all about the Ummah
    “I’ve never said he doesn’t matter to them-just not me.”

    It doesnt matter to you what source Islamic terrorists use to justify their actions? Wow. Thats pretty close minded.
    Don’t care what magazines gays read either. Just don’t try to “date” me. Alwys thought that was pretty open minded

    Little tip for you. Understanding the Qur’an and hadiths doesnt make you a Muslim. Talk about bigoted.
    lol

  51. Elric66 says:

    Now this is a politician that I like. You see, he actually studied the Qur’an so he isnt fooled when people tell him Islam is a religion of peace. Knowledge is power. Something to think about Fray.

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,325305,00.html

  52. Elric66 says:

    “Asked if the government plans to beef up security, van Hovell last month said the government is making a concerted effort to reach out to the Muslim community in the Netherlands and the larger Muslim world.

    Said van Hovell: “We’re explaining that in the Netherlands you have freedom of expression, and that at the same time the Dutch government is very concerned about the message Mr. Wilders supposedly wants to portray in his movie.”

    Why would they feel the need for such an outreach if an overwhelming percentage of Muslims are law bidding and peaceful? Would they make such an outreach if the film was about the Bible, the Torah?

    What are they concerned about in the message? That its true?

  53. BDE says:

    Elric,

    Told you my ID in a previous post. In any case, how is that material to this discussion?

    You are correct in that I was a bit nasty towards you (just as you were towards me btw). I apologize. I let my personal dislike of someone who preaches intolerance towards a group based purely on religion get in the way of good behaviour.

  54. Elric66 says:

    “Told you my ID in a previous post. In any case, how is that material to this discussion?”

    No you didnt and you failed to mention it again. Its relavent because if I know what name you posted under then I have a better mindset who Im debating and what you posted on the yahoo message boards. Its only fair. Thats why I use the same handle. No doubt ever who I am and I never hide who I am.

    “I let my personal dislike of someone who preaches intolerance towards a group based purely on religion get in the way of good behaviour.”

    I preach intolerance towards an ideology (its not really a religion, its much more) that is intolerant of all non Muslims and I will never apologize for that. If you dislike intolerance so much, why dont you start with Islam and its treatment of non Muslims in Muslim lands instead of targeting me?

    As for the apology, Ill accept it. I cant remember what I said in reaction to wishing me dead but Ill apogigize for reacting to it and its water under the bridge now.

  55. Elric66 says:

    Just 26% of Muslim Americans believe the U.S.-led war on terror is a sincere effort to reduce terrorism. By contrast, 67% of the public believes it is.

    Many doubt that Arabs were responsible for the 9/11 attacks. Just 40% of Muslim Americans say groups of Arabs carried out those attacks.

    Only about a third (35%) have a favorable opinion of the decision to remove the Taliban from power following 9/11.

    Only 36% of African-American Muslims have an unfavorable opinion of al-Qaeda.

    Roughly half (51%) of native born Muslims have an unfavorable view of al-Qaeda.

    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

    More delusional thinking from Elric66

  56. in2thefray says:

    Over 100 pg. report..

    Although Muslim Americans have distinctive
    beliefs and practices, their religiosity is similar to
    American Christians in many respects. For example,
    U.S. Muslims are a little more likely than American
    Christians to say religion is “very important” in their
    life (72% and 60%, respectively) but a little less likely
    to say that they pray every day (61% vs. 70%).
    The two
    religious communities are about equally likely to attend
    religious services at least weekly (40% for Muslims vs.
    45% for Christians). Thus in terms of the broad patterns
    of religiosity, American Islam resembles the
    mainstream of American religious life.

    Asked whether they think of themselves
    first as an American or first as a Muslim, a
    47% plurality of U.S. Muslims say they
    consider themselves Muslims first;
    28% say
    they think of themselves first as Americans. In
    May 2006, when U.S. Christians were asked a
    parallel question, 42% said they think of
    themselves as Christians first,
    while 48% said
    they are Americans first.

    Like other U.S. religious groups, Muslims believe
    that their religious convictions can fit comfortably in a
    world of rapid change and shifting values. More than six-
    in-10 U.S. Muslims (63%) say they see no conflict
    between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern
    society, a belief they share with many Muslims around the
    world.

  57. Elric66 says:

    “Roughly half (51%) of native born Muslims have an unfavorable view of al-Qaeda.”

    That doesnt bother you? The terrorist group that flew planes into our buildings?

    “Muslims (63%) say they see no conflict
    between being a devout Muslim and living in a modern
    society, a belief they share with many Muslims around the
    world.”

    So? 37 percent do

    Funny that felt they had to ask if a Muslim would even have a conflict living in modern society.

    Interesting you had no comment on Geert Wilder.
    Has the right to do it. Is doing it for fascist reasons. looks forward to politically benefitting from the suffering of others. His haircut looks like crap

  58. Elric66 says:

    “more worried about the terrorism than the Islamic. This makes me the bad guy”

    Makes you ignorant because you dont want to study the root cause.
    We’ve been over this
    “But you’ve always said it is all about the Ummah”

    That made no sense.
    Welcome to my world. You said the reason I can live side by side w/Muslims is because I’m not a Muslim so I said what I did
    “Don’t care what magazines gays read either. Just don’t try to “date” me. Alwys thought that was pretty open minded”

    Comparing a magazine to the book Muslim concider the word of Allah? Surely you can do better than that.
    Really ? between trades how much time should I devout to you ? My point being the books people read are irrelevant to me it’s about the actions.

  59. BDE says:

    Elric,

    Honestly, I can’t remember what ID I used on the yahoo MBs. I was not a regular poster. I just remember seeing your posts there and finding them disturbing. Yahoo no longer has the MBs up si I can’t even go back and check. Last time I posted there was likely 2002.

    Anyway, I am glad you have accepted my apology. I did fly off the handle at you. Bad form on my behalf.

    I also thank you for your clarification that it is the “ideology” of Islam (rather than all Muslims) that you attack but I think you are being disingenious; you focus only on the extremists within Islam without any mention of the extremists within other religious groups (extremists Christians and Jews can be just as nasty what with the Baruch Goldsteins of this world and the anti-abortionists who are willing to kill to oppose what they view as murder).

    Just like i2tf, I think you really need to re-evaluate what you believe Islam and Muslims are. Perhaps you should try communicating with Muslims and then you could accept that they are not all foaming at the mouth radicals seeking to spread Islam by violence. Most just want to carry on their lives normally and don’t really prosthelitize.

    BTW I am an atheist, not a Muslim.

  60. Elric66 says:

    Moroccan organisations in the Netherlands want Geert Wilders prosecuted for discrimination against Muslims — for a film no one has yet seen.

    Death of Free Speech Update for Expatica (thanks to Sr. Soph):

    THE HAGUE – Moroccan organisations in the Netherlands want the public prosecution department to prosecute Freedom party PVV leader Geert Wilders for discrimination against Muslims. If the justice department refuses, then the organisations will approach the court to force the prosecution department to take action.
    Chairman of the National Moroccan Council (LBM) Mohamed Rabbae said this on Thursday, partly in response to the film on the Koran that Wilders is currently working on.

    Rabbae says that the public prosecution department is hesitant to follow through on the many complaints filed against Wilders and that there is some fear of taking legal action against him. “We want to force that action,” says the former GroenLinks MP.

    The public prosecution department received more than 40 complaints against Wilders after the MP called for the Koran to be banned. The justice department has not yet indicated whether the complaints will lead to prosecution.

    The LBM, which claims to represent 200 organisations, says that Wilders is waging “racist politics” by constantly insulting Muslims and discriminating against them. “Wilders is a racist with regard to Islam. His comments are not aimed at a race, but at a religion and population group,” says Rabbae.

    He’s a racist, but not toward a race. Got it.

    And so it begins.

  61. Elric66 says:

    “Has the right to do it. Is doing it for fascist reasons. looks forward to politically benefitting from the suffering of others. His haircut looks like crap.”

    Ohhh throwing out the “F” word. I guess its ok for Muslims to make non Muslims suffer but not ok for non Muslims to make Muslims “suffer”. I still yet have to hear a Muslim say that a critic of Islam is wrong when they quote the Qur’an, just that they are an “Islamophobe”. I guess when you cant debate facts, one must name call. As you can see allready, Muslims are trying to shut down Geert’s film and take him to court without even seeing the film. And why didnt you answer why the Netherlands feel the need for such an outreach? Would they do it for a film about the Bible and the Torah? All you can do is call him a facsist and say he has a bad haircut.
    Well you see he is and people outside of the readership of BrusselJournal think it too.You of course omit that I said he had the right to do it. You seemingly give no thought that he is motivated to do this and even more than the film just salivating at the build up. It’s like Nero tuning the fiddle before the fires. You also mistakenly imply that I would be ok with violence on behalf of outraged Muslims. This is just blatantly untrue. As for hi coiff,it was meant as humor but it really is hideous. That’s my opinion DONT START A RIOT OK.

  62. Elric66 says:

    “I just remember seeing your posts there and finding them disturbing.’

    Such as?

    “I also thank you for your clarification that it is the “ideology” of Islam (rather than all Muslims)”

    I never said it was all Muslims, I have always attacked the ideology of Islam.

    “you focus only on the extremists within Islam without any mention of the extremists within other religious groups (extremists Christians and Jews can be just as nasty what with the Baruch Goldsteins of this world and the anti-abortionists who are willing to kill to oppose what they view as murder).”

    “Just like i2tf, I think you really need to re-evaluate what you believe Islam and Muslims are. Perhaps you should try communicating with Muslims and then you could accept that they are not all foaming at the mouth radicals seeking to spread Islam by violence. Most just want to carry on their lives normally and don’t really prosthelitize.”

    No I dont. I know what Islam is. I see what damage its doing in Europe (with the help of the dhimmi Euros) I never said that they all want to kill us. But how do you know which ones will and wont? Read up on some books by Robert Spencer and you may see the light. He documents everything with the actual quotes from the Qur’an and haidths. He has his critics but they never dispute the quotes just call him names.

  63. Elric66 says:

    “You seemingly give no thought that he is motivated to do this and even more than the film just salivating at the build up. ”

    Why would there be a build up?
    He’s building up the coming controversy. He has already gotten what he really wants. It only gets better for him.
    “That’s my opinion DONT START A RIOT OK.”

    Again, why would there be a riot?
    My comment was aimed at you

    And again, would there be all this worry if he did a film on the Bible or Torah? Come on, thats an easy question.

    “You also mistakenly imply that I would be ok with violence on behalf of outraged Muslims.”
    I seem to remember a number of stories about outraged protests about chocolate Jesus and crucifix in urine. A riot no
    Nope, I am just questioning why Muslims are getting so outraged, even now before the film is released.

    Do you think he shouldnt release it? I know you said he had the right to, but should he? Why or why not?
    I don’t think so. If it was someone else who offered a more intellectually honest reasoning to do it I’d say yes.

  64. Elric66 says:

    KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan journalist sentenced to death for distributing an article that allegedly violated Islam is actually being punished for reporting by his brother about abuses by northern warlords, a media group said Wednesday.
    Sayed Parwez Kaambakhsh, 23, was sentenced to death Tuesday by a three-judge panel in the northern city of Mazar-i-Sharif for distributing a report he printed off the Internet to fellow journalism students at Balkh University.
    The judges said the article humiliated Islam, and members of a clerics council had pushed for Kaambakhsh to be punished.
    This is what democracy brings to the Islamic world.
    It doesn’t make it any better since it is foolish he’s been tried especially in a post Taliban environment. He will stand for three more “trials” and the end result ie punishment sentence can be changed.The bell has rung for me-Goodnight

  65. Elric66 says:

    “He’s building up the coming controversy. He has already gotten what he really wants. It only gets better for him.”

    How is he doing that? Because he is getting death threats?
    Because he has his hand in stressing the contents of the film for the purpose of getting the response. the response which I haven’t said is justified but is imaginable and even pledged by some.This gives him what he really wants

    “My comment was aimed at you”

    How am I starting a riot?
    you’re wound too tight. It was humor along the lines of an opinion being discussed that you wouldn’t agree with

    “I seem to remember a number of stories about outraged “protests about chocolate Jesus and crucifix in urine. A riot no”

    They protested peacefully unlike Muslims. That would explain why “artist” arent afraid to create “art” aimed to offend Christians but wont do so to offend Muslims. Rather funny when so many say Islam is a religion of peace. Their actions say otherwise.

    “I don’t think so. If it was someone else who offered a more intellectually honest reasoning to do it I’d say yes.”

    You dont even know his reasoning. So Geert Wilder offends you more than the rampaging Muslims who will protest over the truth of the Qur’an. Gotcha
    I’m fairly confident his reasoning is to bolster his fascist xenophobia and nothing to do with bettering Dutch sovereign rights

    “It doesn’t make it any better since it is foolish he’s been tried especially in a post Taliban environment.”

    Thats my whole point. Even when democracy is given, Islam law is chosen. What makes you think it will be any better in Eurabia?

    Night Fray

  66. Elric66 says:

    Banks are helping sharia make a back-door entrance
    Tarek Fatah, about whom I have written here, writes in the Globe and Mail about the encroachment of Sharia in Canada:

    It seems only yesterday that Premier Dalton McGuinty declared: “There will be no sharia law in Ontario.” Many of us, who witnessed the medieval nature of manmade sharia laws in our countries of birth, heaved a sigh of relief back in September of 2005. We thought this was the end of the attempt by Islamists to sneak sharia into a Western jurisdiction. We were wrong.
    The campaign to introduce sharia is back. Last time, the campaign took a populist approach, invokimulticulturalism. This time, the pro-sharia lobby is dangling the carrot of new niche markets and has the backing of Canada’s major banks. Such icons of the corporate world as Citibank NA, HSBC Holdings PLC, and Barclays PLC have endorsed sharia banking and have started offering Islamic financing products to a vulnerable Muslim population.
    Funny, I just talked about Sharia law in Canada just yesterday.
    Financial products are different tan civil/criminal trials. The government of Canada should confer with the banks (job & revenue corporate citizens) and play a role in this. They should if it rolls out regulate it like all banking and adamantly assert the sovereignty of Canada.

  67. Elric66 says:

    Fatah activists belonging to the “Brigades of Return” and to “Black September” claimed responsibility for carrying out the shooting attack in Shoafat Thursday evening. The attack left one Israeli dead and another one seriously wounded.
    A spokesman on behalf of the al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades, Fatah’s military wing, told Ynet that the attackers “returned to their base safely.”

    The Fatah spokesman called a Ynet reporter to claim responsibility for the attack and said it marked the continuation of the organization’s new policy, as reported last week in another talk with Ynet. In that talk, the group said it was no longer committed to the calm with Israel and added that small cells were again active across the West Bank in order to prepare for a series of attacks.
    Ironically Hamas is actually looking to negotiate and establish a permanent crossing in Gaza where the wall went down.This actually has some Israeli support but as of yet the Egyptians aren’t down with it.

    “This is our proof that we are no longer committed to the calm and that we do not intend to continue handing over our weapons,” the spokesman said. “We are only committed to resistance against the Israeli occupation. The next attacks are already underway, we promised a response within a few days and this is the first operation in a series of operations.”

    The spokesman refused to address the attack’s implications on diplomatic negotiations currently underway and said that at this time his organization was only committed to “respond to Israel’s crimes in the Strip and to the killing of group members in the West Bank.”…

    And thats for those that feel sorry for the Palis and support a 2 state solution.

  68. Elric66 says:

    Last one. I had to send this to you Fray, I know you will appreciate it. 🙂

    Cookie Monster

    http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/01/cookie-monster.html#comments

  69. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    Well, this is a long line of comments and has managed to intertwine more than a few of subjects….

    So, just to add a little thought from the UK –

    Years ago the banking regs were changed over here to allow for ‘payments’ to be made to muslims for houses – it took out interest from the equation and, you may like to know, none of our other laws was changed! but it is a rather tortured contract…

    Didn’t you guys have ‘white flight’? where white areas were re-established? So muslims want to have big houses? Some may move in for the nearness/view of temple or just to be near those of a similar linguistic background (which is, coincidentally, one of the most important factors of immigrants wanting to live together).

    If only all the crusades made it to ‘The Holy Land’ – some of which were basically the prison population of europe on the march and just raped, slaughtered and robbed their way through jewish and islamic quarters – I think ‘scum’ is an appropriate word here. But think of the political minds who set this lot loose around europe…

    One of the things that isn’t mentioned is that one of the reasons the pilgrims were stopped was because some of them acted just like that before the islamic leaders decided to say ‘no more’ to protect their own folk…

    Elric66, old bean, I’m a christian – I don’t like capitalism, and until the UK decides to love the stranger in the midst, the poor in society, care for the sick and genuinely straighten the paths of ‘the wicked’ rather than just picking on them and institutionally destroying them – I’m not much for ‘my’ country…

    Looking at the world around me – I don’t see England being ‘destroyed’ by islam or muslims – A court case was brought against ‘The life of Brian’ by Monty Python’s Flying Circus using the blaspemy laws – I think the film is clever, funny, witty and very,very destructive but I wouldn’t ban it, or try to – just like they again tried, once again under the blasphemy laws, to ban the Jerry Springer musical show – I don’t much care for the theatre so you’ll excuse me for not seeing it but again, I believe in free expression… So, in our liberal west christians have tried to ban stuff and have legal reviews – just like your morrocan board…

    Have I missed anything?

  70. in2thefray says:

    @Free…You always seem to come along out of nowhere. Thanks for stopping by and adding to the discussion

  71. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    As I said to Salahuddin [however you spell that retiring member of the Towelians…] – it’s all the fun of the fair…

    I was appraising some of your posts and after slogging threw all these comments I just couldn’t contain myself… glad you appreciate my spanner….

    But – Did I miss anything?

    Oh – the single biggest threat to ‘Britishness’ – identity/state or values is the rather expansionist European Union…

  72. in2thefray says:

    Just took the long way here myself,it has gotten rather long. From my seat the addition of the view from somewhere there is a great thing. It’s been a number of years since last I walked the streets of London,stood on the Cliffs of Dover and trudged through the town of Berwick upon Tweed just to see a town I saw on a map at the age of 9. Nonetheless I always felt any nation does well keeping it’s identity and therefore have thought the EU was bad news outside of commerce issues. I always enjoyed hearing the English accent and terms then seeing an Indian,Jamaican or Arab speaking.

  73. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    I think you’ve just defended what most folk call ‘multi-culturalism’ rather well there.

    Recently we had someone with a thick ‘west indies’ accent as a link man between programmes on Radio 4 – it was a bit difficult to begin with but he got over his nerves, his accent became softer, but still gloriously west indies, and so he’s a firm fixture in this British Institution – I just hope he doesn’t get ‘institutionalised’!

    I would argue that whether a nation’s identity should be nurtured/protected depends entirely on the merits of that identity. In regard to EU -as a commercial block it makes sense but I can’t help but think that the ‘Commonwealth’ view/culture is much better and it could even be, perhaps, more of an economic powerhouse when India and some african countries get their act together…

  74. in2thefray says:

    I think you’ve just defended what most folk call ‘multi-culturalism’ rather well there.

    That’s kind of a kick in my pants. I subscribe to the concept of mono culturalism. I appreciate other cultures and learning and sharing but I’m big on “when in Rome…” It just kills me when people think those from other places aren’t willing to be part of the big show. My best friend is a naturalized citizen who still gets pissed on by ignorant people. The biggest and worse to some degree was when he was approached (almost attacked) for being Arab. He’s from Costa Rica. By the way that was an intriguing point about the Commonwealth model. That could be an interesting talking point especially given the African getting it together piece. thx again

  75. Elric66 says:

    “Because he has his hand in stressing the contents of the film for the purpose of getting the response. the response which I haven’t said is justified but is imaginable and even pledged by some.This gives him what he really wants”

    Why is it imaginable?

    “I’m fairly confident his reasoning is to bolster his fascist xenophobia and nothing to do with bettering Dutch sovereign rights”

    Ahhh the phobia label. How is presenting the Qur’an for what it is “fascist?

    “Ironically Hamas is actually looking to negotiate and establish a permanent crossing in Gaza where the wall went down.This actually has some Israeli support but as of yet the Egyptians aren’t down with it.”

    Yeah to smuggle weapons to kill Jews, how “ironic”

    “Elric66, old bean, I’m a christian – I don’t like capitalism”

    What a shock, a Brit that doesnt like capitialism.

    “I don’t see England being ‘destroyed’ by islam or muslims”

    No, you wouldnt. How are those no go areas coming along?

    “Oh – the single biggest threat to ‘Britishness’ – identity/state or values is the rather expansionist European Union”

    The EUSSR is a great evil, no argument. Who do you think is paving the way for Eurabia? The EUSSR is just a stop gap until Muslims get to the majority.

    “One of the things that isn’t mentioned is that one of the reasons the pilgrims were stopped was because some of them acted just like that before the islamic leaders decided to say ‘no more’ to protect their own folk”

    LOL I love Euros that defend the Islamic empire. Crusaders bad, Caliphate good. They never think of how the holy land ever became Islamic in the first place.

  76. Elric66 says:

    “It just kills me when people think those from other places aren’t willing to be part of the big show.”

    It ever kill you to think some cultures just aren’t willing to do that? That all cultures aren’t alike?

  77. Elric66 says:

    Geert Wilder explaining the film.

    American Muslim spokesman: “violent protests” to Dutch film on Qur’an would be “natural”

    The first response that would be natural among Muslims is to fall into Geerts’ trap and resort to violent protests. Heavy-handed measures against such protests could merely provoke greater violence….

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/019705.php#comments

  78. Elric66 says:

    INFORMATION GUIDE FOR MUSLIM COMMUNITIES IN
    DEALING WITH ANTI-TERRORISM RAIDS/ARRESTS

    1. Make clear on whose behalf the statement is being issued.

    2. Set out the Islamic perspective on acts of violence which results in damage or loss of lives of innocent civilians and property.

    3. Set out the local Muslim immediate response to the events e.g. shock, sadness etc.

    4. Set out that investigation has just commenced and ask for media and public to await the outcome of the investigation once it has been completed and not to rush to conclusions.

    5. Set out that individuals are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

    6. Ask for understanding and co-operation by the media in not adopting language that will stereotype the rest of the Muslim community and spread fear and misunderstanding in the wider community.

    7. Throughout your statement avoid the use of language such as ‘Islamic terrorists’, ‘Muslim terrorists’, ‘jihad’ etc but emphasise that individuals have been arrested accused of criminal activities and if found guilty will be sanctioned by the Criminal Justice system of the country accordingly.

    http://www.faithassociates.co.uk/images/terroraid%20guide%20feb%202007%20v1.4.pdf

    I wonder if the Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, and Hindu communities feel the need to issue one.

    I’ll be posting an answer Monday

  79. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    Oh, Elric66, I just love your demeanor – but to cut to it…

    How can you support a ‘Crusade’ when it only ever reached the Balkans? About two (of the five I know of) were honourable efforts at getting the pilgrim routes secure… That does not mean that all ‘pilgrims’ behaved as they should have…

    I saw a panel upon which there was a christian, a jew and a muslim – and I was shocked by the jew (quite spontaneously) when he just butted in and said that under the caliphate in the Iberian peninsular they (as jews) were the best treated than by any other government…

    The EU, not to give it your horrofic honorific, would seek to export its, rather rampant, secularism rather than wait to become an islamic superstate – that’s the whole debate/struggle over whether or not Turkey can join – and Turkey as a state is, even under an islamic party (by democratic election) still undergoing changes to join up…

    About our ‘no-go’ zones – Elric66, old bean, we’ve always had them generally speaking most of the ‘no-go’ zones are probably sink-hole estates the government under funds to keep that way… and they are mostly white – you’ll be glad to know. There are other ‘no-go’ zones but there is much more than merely saying there’s a ‘muslim no-go’ zone – what about the gated rich ‘no-go’ zones – the use of ‘no-go’ zones makes no sense unless you are ready to have a look at the whole picture…

    And there are cultures that do not want to ‘just get along’ and they are closer to your home than anywhere else – what about the white towns which have no black population that were founded after Martin Luther King’s fight for equality…

    Of course if Geert is right in his view of the Koran it wouldn’t be fascist to show it – but the debate is just because he’s a wacky dutch politician doesn’t mean he’s right. And so is what he says correct or not and to say it’s in the same league as Mein Kampf is rather odd in the sense that one is a book centuries old and the other something Germans only bought and read when Hitler got elected but probably never got round to reading it…

    You’ll be gald to know that most brits support ‘capitalism’ but thanks for the support.

    Have I missed anything?

  80. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    In2TheFray – ‘When in Rome…’

    The historical analysis of that is crucial – it abrogates personal morality completely and contextualizes it absolutely which I think is a terrible thing…

    To put it in context when that phrase was used these were the kind of things thought ok by the rulers (and it’s their advice to newcomers by the way) – bribing the electorate, slavery, blood games (gladiators or lions), invoking mob riots to deal with obstinate opposition, instituting policies that would wreck other economies for Rome’s benefit, stripping towns of menfolk for their army….

    I’m sure that if I really get down to it I could work on the list but my personal favourite is when the celts sacked Rome c. 395BC – burn it the ground and take away the gold – but they should have finished the job. Just a view.

    I2TF says….My use is purely meant as the saying is generally understood. If I was to live in Spain I should learn some Spanish,open my palate to other foods and obey the laws. This is applicable to any nation. There’s a difference between a visitor and a citizen.Your exploration is noteworthy but not where I was going. I’d add that say a Briton went to Alabama USA in the 60’s. I wouldn’t expect him to join the Klan or embrace Jim Crow.

    Of course if folk took an individual stance that they valued themselves – maybe they wouldn’t see your friend as an enemy but someone who walks the same streets as them…

  81. Elric66 says:

    “maybe they wouldn’t see your friend as an enemy but someone who walks the same streets as them”

    And sometimes your enemy is in fact your enemy.

  82. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    In2TheFray – I know how most folk think of the phrase ‘When in Rome…’ and there is the ‘ideal’ that you just do stuff to ‘get along’ but the underlying reasoning behind that is contextualising morality – in spain you have the bull runs and fighting – we couldn’t have them in the uk because of animal welfare issues… I know there’s the great defence of ‘you don’t have to go…’ and fair enough BUT what does ‘When in Rome…’ really mean in that context?
    There is also a part of the “defense” that can be an offense.You don’t go as a point of protest to effect change. I may put up a post on this since you’ve raised a point
    Given your opt out for either the clan or crow – I could expect your answer to be culturally relevant – if it’s fine for them it’s up to you to decide to go or not to go, but doesn’t that mean that if a visiting brit wanted to they could join the clan or embrace crow?
    whether the visitor chooses to join or not needs to be in the context of functioning as a citizen not a visitor
    Elric66, I had hopes for a better response than that – If this guy is In2TheFray’s friend – that’s Fray’s call, surely, or do you think that anyone who may have the misfortune to look islamic, nevermind being islamic, is an enemy in the hiding just waiting for his/her chance? If you go that far there will be no-one left.
    My friends exist in the real world since the in the flesh nuances are important to me before using the F word. In the blogosphere I’ve allowed a diverse view to come and discuss things. It is one of the reasons the name…In2thefray. I don’t blog for friendship it’s more like scholarship
    Remember that old quote from the 2WW – ‘They came for the jews but as I was not a jew I said nothing, then they came for…’ and in the end the catholic priest found himself taken away himself…

  83. Elric66 says:

    “How can you support a ‘Crusade’ when it only ever reached the Balkans? About two (of the five I know of) were honourable efforts at getting the pilgrim routes secure… That does not mean that all ‘pilgrims’ behaved as they should have…”

    I support the Crusades in that it was a noble venture and it kept the Muslims too occupied from pushing into Europe.

    “I saw a panel upon which there was a christian, a jew and a muslim – and I was shocked by the jew (quite spontaneously) when he just butted in and said that under the caliphate in the Iberian peninsular they (as jews) were the best treated than by any other government…”

    Sounds like a dhimmi, he can feel free to move to Saudi or Iran.

    “The EU, not to give it your horrofic honorific, would seek to export its, rather rampant, secularism rather than wait to become an islamic superstate”

    Dont count on it, the Muslims are outbreeding you and if the Muslims at a 3 percent in Britian can make you guys compliant, I cant imagine what Britian will do when the population is doubled.

    “and they are mostly white”

    Sure they are, keep up with the denial

    “And so is what he says correct or not and to say it’s in the same league as Mein Kampf”

    The Qur’an is worse

    “You’ll be gald to know that most brits support ‘capitalism’ but thanks for the support.”

    Then why is the UK a socialist state?

  84. Elric66 says:

    “I’ll be posting an answer Monday”

    I look forward to your spin.

  85. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    If you want to remain credible then, Elric66, old chap, you’ll have to do more than defend the ‘Crusades’ as noble ventures – you’ll have to start thinking about them in terms of how which crusade was carried out – in the end the governments of europe emptied their jails and sent their criminals off to rape burn and pillage through jewish, muslim and orthodox christian quarters with impunity, the later not being able to get past Constantinople and one just getting plain lost in the balkans before they just wandered home with whatever loot they managed to get their sticky fingers on – a noble enterprise indeed!

    The first two crusades have some credibility but we should understand our ideas of ‘Knights’ and how they behaved are very diferent from the reality…

    I think you need to explain what you mean by ‘dhimmi’ and take care when just randomly insulting folk you know next to nothing about…

    The comment about the ‘care’ of the jews under the caliphate was not an unrestructured comment that translated into muslims are better than christians at all times – but then again some so called christian states were diabolic in how they treated jews – do you want to just ignore that historical comparison about how Islam has/can be for just one model of practice?

    Well, it’s alright to be alarmist about the state of demographics and rates of birth and all that but a quick glance at the numbers will show you that it’ll take more than fifty years for your worries to come to pass and we are ALREADY seeing a difference between successive generations of immigrants so it’s quite possible that a third generation Iranian would feel little or no cultural identity with Iran or islam – which means that it’ll take a heck of a lot longer than fifty years for anything to be problematic and of course the further you can put it off – the more likely that nothing is, in reality, going to happen according to your paranoic drift…

    Actually – I have a pretty good grasp on the demographics of this debate and so, bluntly, I’m going to accuse you of the denial – that there is a problem with society that there are sink-hole estates and no-go zones and that they are maintained by the state so the state can worry the rest of us into ‘giving’ it greater and greater powers to tackle ‘the threat’ from which most of us aren’t actually threatened… There are problems in society and they come from all sorts of places and even some of the ones we think can’t be harmful are in fact cancerous – the gated rich ‘no-go’ zones ghettoising themselves by dint of their wealth does not make for an integrated society… and I assume none of us in this debate would say they were doing something we should stop as it’s their money?

    And now the interesting question – After reading ‘The warfare state’ by David Edgerton the slide into The Welfare State is given an interesting account and now, thanks to new and ever more oppressive laws we are more likely to become a fascist state – which one of these is socialist?

    InToTheFray – I kinda granted that we weren’t ‘friends’ but I hope you like the dialogue as much as I do… my reference to your friend being your friend was based on you saying that you had in fact a friend – I wouldn’t for obvious reasons wish to go any further than this…

    But as a last comment of ‘When in rome…’ – I’ll be brief, the folk who used to give it as advice, ie the ruling classes to their visiting guests meant it in exactly the same way you do now
    heading out o can’t give this the full attention it deserves. For clarification “my friend” earlier referenced is in the real world ,knows nothing of my blog and is indeed a great person.As for the dialogue I relish it and thank you for adding to it,I’ll try to get back otherwise Monday will be busy computer time for me. Hope you’ll return

  86. Elric66 says:

    AN “overwhelming majority” of Europeans believe immigration from Islamic countries is a threat to their traditional way of life, a survey revealed last night.

    The poll, carried out across 21 countries, found “widespread anti-immigration sentiment”, but warned Europe’s Muslim population will treble in the next 17 years.

    It reported “a severe deficit of trust is found between the Western and Muslim communities”, with most people wanting less interaction with the Muslim world.

    Last night an MP warned it showed that political leaders in Britain who preach the benefits of unlimited immigration were dangerously out of touch with the public.

    The study, whose authors include the former Archbishop of Canterbury Lord Carey, was commissioned for leaders at the World Economic Forum meeting in Davos, Switzerland.

    It reports “a growing fear among Europeans of a perceived Islamic threat to their cultural identities, driven in part by immigration from predominantly Muslim nations”.

    I guess they are as “crazy” and “fascist” as Geert Wilder

  87. BDE says:

    Elric,

    “I support the Crusades in that it was a noble venture and it kept the Muslims too occupied from pushing into Europe.”

    So violence inflicted by Christians is noble while that undertaken by Muslims is evil. No hypocrisy there LOL!

    “Sounds like a dhimmi, he can feel free to move to Saudi or Iran.”

    You just can’t accept that Jews were treated worse by Xtians compared to the Iberian Muslims even when a Jew says it. No, no blinders on you! LOL!

    Seriously, you need to start thinking a little deeper.

  88. Elric66 says:

    “So violence inflicted by Christians is noble while that undertaken by Muslims is evil. No hypocrisy there LOL!”

    Unless you think Christianity should have rolled over and allowed the Caliphate to overrun Europe, yes it was a noble venture. Islam was pushing into Europe 400 years BEFORE the Crusades were called. Yes their is a difference. When the Caliphate was expanding, it wasnt a defensive measure.

    “You just can’t accept that Jews were treated worse by Xtians compared to the Iberian Muslims even when a Jew says it. No, no blinders on you! LOL!”

    Must be why Jews mostly lived in Europe and the US before Israel was reestablished. Not saying that Jews werent treated bad in the Christian world, they were. But it wasnt because of the Bible or teachings of Jesus, while Mohammed hated the Jews and the Qur’an calls for treating non Muslims as second class citizens.

    You, my friend must think a bit deeper.
    technically speaking the mistreatment of Jews was linked to the Bible. In as much as the concept that “The Jews Killed Jesus” was plucked from it’s pages and used by the pluckers to justify hate.

  89. Elric66 says:

    The current government of Maldives will not give place for any religion other than Islam; President Maumoon Abdul Gayoom said today. Addressing a gathering at H.A Atoll Ihavandhoo island (on a campaign trip for the upcoming presidential elections), Gayoom said that some outsiders (governments, associations..etc) are not happy because Maldives is a hundred percent Muslim country, and these outsiders are working to get this place for other religions. “But there is no place for that (in Maldives)” said Gayoom.
    He also said that the government attaches a very high priority to protect the Islamic unity in Maldives and that have been the very first and one of the most important tasks he began after coming to power (in 1978).
    After Gayoom came to power the constitution of the Maldives have been amended to make president of Maldives “the supreme authority to propagate the tenets of Islam in the Maldives” (Article 38, Constitution). And also a “Protection of Religious Unity of Maldivians Act”, was introduced. Maldivians who convert to other religions,simply speak contrary to the government approved version of Islam, sometimes even for wearing a crucifix or simply carrying a bible are punished under this law. Gayoom is an Islamic Scholar who did his masters in Islamic Sharia and Civil Law, at Al Azhar University of Egypt.
    But Geert Wilder is the bad guy. Let me guess, no Muslims will come out and condemn this just like they dont condemn Saudi.
    I2TF says: you leave out that there are many in the Maldives that oppose the dictatorship. The dictatorship which benefits from using Islamic ideas to bolster it’s position. It is still a dictatorship that also persecutes other Muslims. The leader is a classic dictator as evidenced by his determination to have his interpretation of the Quran be the official way. There are no indigenous people of other faiths in the country. That was how it was not a matter of forced conversion to Islam. The choice by outsiders to come and attempt to convert people is open to debate. As for Geert being the bad guy still that was covered.As for this guy in the Maldives well he’s a bad guy too. As for Muslims speaking out against the Maldive government well the ones doing it are actually Muslim sssooo…

  90. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    I can agree with the report of ‘…a growing fear among europeans of a perceived islamic threat…’ as the papers keep banging on about how we under siege or in danger of being swamped – and if it’s not the hard working poles, legally able to come into the uk (It’s the old EU idea of open borders – which I’m in favour of despite the other policies – namely the european super border) – so if you ask folk about a threat of being swamped by poles you might find the same results – but they’re mostly catholic so you’ll, Elric66, won’t have any problem with them?

    Double 3% is 6% – how is that a danger in a population of an expected 70 million? Actually – how is 6% a danger in any population?

    I find the idea of ‘tolerance’ less than I like – which is how the Koran says muslims should treat various other folk because ‘tolerance’ is far short of acceptance – but it’s better by far than say the national bigots/fascists whose policy you seem to endorse. By being one worse than your enemy is to become worse than them.

    If only folk were encouraged from the first steps to be able to think for themselves then just take others point of view as correct without examining it – the press know that they can sell more by scaring folk and so they do… and so the people are – it’s sad but true. There are good journalists and papers but all of them have their bias and if you look at the circulation figures it’s the learned folk of ‘The Sun’ who spread their word furthest…

    Of course there’s no problem with having foreigners manipulating another population for their own ends is there?

    Elric – I think you’ll find that I only called Geert ‘wacky’ as for ‘fascist’ I was saying that, if his view is true [IF] then it would not be fascist to show his film… I don’t know what his view is but I’ve more time for the likes of films made by that matyr and descendant of Van Gogh, who’s name I’ve temporarily forgottern but who made a film particularly addressing the condition/state/treatment of women within islamic societies…

    What does Dhimmi mean?

    I look forward to hearing your reply later today, InToTheFray…
    Just to be clear Elric is a commenter at this site. The site owner of In2thefray is NOT Elric nor do we know each other outside of this forum

  91. Elric66 says:

    The Rate of Immigration into the EU is Increasing
    by Baron Bodissey

    Below is a very sobering story from today’s ANSAmed about the projected rate of immigration into Europe from “the South” over the next decade.

    There are several things to bear in mind when reading this:

    1. This forecast is based on information from EuroMed, i.e. the official arm of the European Commission charged with establishing what has become known as Eurabia. One can thus assume that the predictions have been massaged to the best of EuroMed’s abilities, and that the real situation must be even worse.
    2. The more educated immigrants are going overseas, to the USA, Australia, etc. The poor, ignorant, and less employable “southerners” are moving to Europe.
    3. The estimates posted yesterday at GalliaWatch (thanks LN): “Six out of ten persons from foreign countries of working age are idle. The deficit in public funds attributable to this population reaches 48 billion euros, or 80% of the total deficit recorded in 2004. Regarding their effect on the GNP, they represent 93 billion in added value and they consume 126 billion.”

  92. Elric66 says:

    “Double 3% is 6% – how is that a danger in a population of an expected 70 million? Actually – how is 6% a danger in any population?”

    If the Brits are bending over for 3 percent, imagine what it will be like at 6 percent.

    “I find the idea of ‘tolerance’ less than I like – which is how the Koran says muslims should treat various other folk because ‘tolerance’ is far short of acceptance – but it’s better by far than say the national bigots/fascists whose policy you seem to endorse. By being one worse than your enemy is to become worse than them.”

    Sure it is. Covert, submit or die. Yeah thats much better. But to be “intolerant” of that is much worse.

    “What does Dhimmi mean?”

    You took it as an insult but dont know the definition?

    Dhimmitude is the status that Islamic law, the Sharia, mandates for non-Muslims, primarily Jews and Christians. Dhimmis, “protected people,” are free to practice their religion in a Sharia regime, but are made subject to a number of humiliating regulations designed to enforce the Qur’an’s command that they “feel themselves subdued” (Sura 9:29). This denial of equality of rights and dignity remains part of the Sharia, and, as such, is part of the law that global jihadists are laboring to impose everywhere, ultimately on the entire human race.

    The dhimmi attitude of chastened subservience has entered into Western academic study of Islam, and from there into journalism, textbooks, and the popular discourse. One must not point out the depredations of jihad and dhimmitude; to do so would offend the multiculturalist ethos that prevails everywhere today.

  93. Elric66 says:

    “technically speaking the mistreatment of Jews was linked to the Bible. In as much as the concept that “The Jews Killed Jesus” was plucked from it’s pages and used by the pluckers to justify hate.”

    You have some that took it that way to justify their hatred of Jews. Jesus was a Jew and of course Jesus would never have sanctioned the mistreatment of the Jews. Mohammed, on the otherhand, would sanction jihad today and would be a supporter of Al-Qaeda, Hamas, Hezbollah etc. You are a smart guy, Im sure you can see the difference.
    Owner states:It is after all my blog and in policing the threads all comments are subject to review. In this case it is simply that the thread isn’t going to be allowed to grow via repeated entries that sadly are not really news. Honor killings are sick and the practice should be eliminated and those that commit them face harsh punishment. Honor killings are a reality that people are aware of. As for Jesus etc. The early Church didn’t really embrace the reality that He was a Jew therefore they could do what they did. As for Muhammed supporting the organizations you list mmmm maybe maybe not. The “outrages” of Islamic expansion were more from those that came after him. On the surface one would say yes but if you’d look deeper and were intellectually curious about it it may go a number of ways. Along the same line if Jesus showed up tomorrow there are a lot of “Christians” who would be in “gnashing of teeth mode” as opposed to on the way to Paradise.

  94. Elric66 says:

    “repeated entries that sadly are not really news”

    Girls murdered in the name of Islam isnt news? Ok
    Yeah sadly it isn’t “news”. Cigarettes kill,seatbelts save lives,too much sunlight is unhealthy. It’s fact and not really news.It’s also not dictated by Islam as much as it is justified by interpretations. The light sentences are weakness based on fear and ignorance
    “The early Church didn’t really embrace the reality that He was a Jew therefore they could do what they did.”

    And went against the teachings of Jesus. I guess you cant grasp that concept.

    “As for Muhammed supporting the organizations you list mmmm maybe maybe not.”

    He would. Who do you think the original jihadist was?

  95. in2thefray says:

    Maldives update on #89

  96. Elric66 says:

    “There are no indigenous people of other faiths in the country. That was how it was not a matter of forced conversion to Islam.”

    How do you think it became Islamic in the first place?
    I imagine the trade routes of old brought a population

    “The leader is a classic dictator as evidenced by his determination to have his interpretation of the Quran be the official way.”

    Amazing how so many are able to do that.
    No literally he wants to write his own version undoubtedly to his benefit. As for any religion being usable for oppression it’s just a reality.
    “As for Muslims speaking out against the Maldive government well the ones doing it are actually Muslim sssooo…”

    Are they protesting that there is no room for other religions?
    Freedom and democracy

  97. Elric66 says:

    “Yeah sadly it isn’t “news”. Cigarettes kill,seatbelts save lives,too much sunlight is unhealthy. It’s fact and not really news.”

    That is such a poor analogy. But then, thats what people do when they dont want to confront the intolerance of Islam.
    It’s an excellent analogy especially as pertains to the full comment.There are honor killings.

  98. Elric66 says:

    “I imagine the trade routes of old brought a population”

    I imagine the Caliphate rolling in and cleaning house.
    Try truth…originally the indingenous pop was Buddhist. Islam introduced during a lapse of dominant faith. Christian influence was ALWAYS foreign in the way of Portuguese and British possession. Take over etc. just not substantiated.

    “No literally he wants to write his own version undoubtedly to his benefit. As for any religion being usable for oppression it’s just a reality.”

    he doesnt need his own version. The Qur’an and islamic history support his views.
    You do this often. You take the truth of an opposing argument that you don’t like and twist and deflect. The leader is a freaking dictator in the classic form. He is oppressing people and wants to have his own Quran.He has the police beat other Muslims that attempt to open other Mosques.
    “Freedom and democracy”

    LOL. That isnt an Islamic tradtion. So they arent protesting the ban of outher religions, thay just think he is too brutal, even for a Muslim.
    the piece you cite speaks of a ban but not anything else. Else being what it says the nation is just not recognizing others. Islam is dominant on the island nation for reasons you don’t get
    “It’s an excellent analogy especially as pertains to the full comment.There are honor killings.”

    You just dont think Muslims killing their female kin is important. But hey, lets have a post about Piglett. Now thats important.
    Again you twist and deflect in the instance where an argument is against your likes. You’re offended by the Piglet post yet as I’ve said earlier YOU are a classic person to point out the Piglet story. I post on it I’m the douche ? I would also state again that it is my blog so I’ll have posts about tropical ferns if I want. I have footprints in the blog world and the real world where I stand against honor killings so watch your mouth

  99. in2thefray says:

    @Elric re: your comments of # 78 and 84.
    Were you around for the LA riots post Rodney King ? Have you ever been to NYC ? You watch the evening news I assume. You ever hear of Tawana Brawley or the history of Latino gangs in LA ?
    My final question is did you read the pdf you offered up ?
    The deal is the booklet is no different than the policies many protest,civil rights, and faith groups have indeed used in the USA. I went through the pdf expecting to find something bad. The assertion of rights as found in the pdf are all very unoriginal and without reason of fear or alarm.

  100. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    InToTheFray – I always assumed you were not somebody else on this blog, I was referring to your comment re ‘When in Rome…’ or otherwise to my comments. They obviously got wiped out as you reacted to Elric66 – who’s been a busy little bee…

    My main question, Elric66, is in what way are we in Britain bending over backwards for the islamic population? If they fork up the money they can have their own school – but then our law says that whoever can pay up that much can [as long as they agree to the ‘National Curriculum’ which I have a problem with but let’s not get onto the philosophy of education…]…

    They can have their own temples, call them mosques – but so can everyone else…

    The only direct changes made for the islamic population is to widen religious protection to all religions and the banking regulation change to allow for a more interesting contract to be drawn up. Banks choose what packages to offer – if they choose to offer this then so what? Are you saying that because someone has a principle they should never be allowed to buy a home?

    The first of these could have been enforced by legislation dealing with incitement to violence and other statutes so I’m not sure what actual difference there is…

    In britain you’ll be glad to know – we benefit on from immigrants by roughly 1 billion. They pay, grossly, around 10 billion and take grossly from services, social/health – 9 billion – Net Profit! Source was from a guest on Any Questions on radio 4 who worked for an immigration board/think tank about two months ago so should still be roughly current but I can’t [sorry, old chap] remember more than that…

    Of course we never hear stories about immigrants who contribute – take yes, contribute no.
    Updated edit. a following comment has been cut & pasted here:
    Actually – instead of billions I should have talked percent of give take from the government’s balance sheets – I’ve found the transcript here
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/news/anyquestions_transcripts_20071214.shtml

    and the quote is “…that the contribution of migrants to our society, and to our economy, is underestimated, in fact I published research a month or two ago that showed that migrants contribute something like £6 billion to our national output and that migrants pay in something like 10 and a bit percent of our tax revenues but only consume about nine and a bit percent of government expenditure….”

    And the person quoted is – Liam Byrne the Home Office Minister as of 14/12/07…

    Perhaps if Europe paid more we might get more working? The other thing is that governments are denying folk the ability to work legally – if that’s not oppressive I’m not sure what is… A working illegal immigrant would have more motivation to stay in one place whilst disputing their case as they contributed to the society as a whole whereas one with no legal work has no reason to stay and may work illegally thereby contributing to the ‘criminal’ economy…

    I may well have taken ‘Dhimmi’ as an insult but then, consider your general tone…

    InToTheFray – christians did pluck various bits and bobs [and that’s the level of it] to justify their mistreatment of jews – pogroms and the like but that stuff didn’t really start until you leave the early church and get to ‘Christian’ kingdoms which used the idea of the occasional progrom as a brilliant way of keeping their population happy and avoid paying back any (and all) moneys owed to the jews…

    But freedom of thought does include being able to talk of more than one thing – unless you are a one issue blogger – which, Elric66, InToTheFray isn’t. So posts about piglets are up to him to post unless you also want to restrict folks speech?

    One thing I find disturbing is the way you pick up a theme, defend it until it’s dashed against the wall and the pieces scattered and then instead of saying something on the lines of ‘I may have to rethink my stance…’ you merely grasp another straw and shout ‘What about this! This’ll prove I’m right!’ which when wanting to have a sincere debate is just darn tricky and meaningless.

    Take the caliphate of the iberian peninsular – you just ignore the fact that they treated the jews more reasonably than anyone else in history (until our modern times, I hope) and move onto the Maldives?

    Take those interesting things – the crusades – you say they were all good because they stemmed the tide of Islam but when informed that some never made it to the ‘Holy Land’ and in fact also looted from orthodox christians – you say nothing? When in fact some of them were used to justify Islamic expansion to protect those muslims that were raped burnt and looted by those released to do just that somewhere else [ie not their home country] – that’s still good?

    I also wonder that you’ve dropped Geert (not that that was going anywhere) when I mentioned the martyred descendant of Van Gogh – Why? Is it because he represented a different approach from your ‘burn ’em all out’ stance?

    And this is were my comment about becoming worse than your enemy – if you think that islam is bad and wrong then should you not think why you believe that – it’s intolerance and militarist and empirialist stance that you assume – what makes you think you are any better when you say you would do worse to them given the chance?

  101. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    Cheers, InToTheFray, for editing my comments together, I wonder what Elric66 will say now?

  102. BDE says:

    Free to think,

    Good retort. The main impetus behind Elric’s arguments is to highlight and repeat certain facts while conveniently ignoring others. He has been called on it over and over again but refuses to acknowledge it or change it. The reason is, quite simply, because he is not interested in anything put promoting an agenda of hatred towards Muslims.

    Sad really because he seems intelligent enough to string a few words together.

  103. Elric66 says:

    “Try truth…originally the indingenous pop was Buddhist. Islam introduced during a lapse of dominant faith. Christian influence was ALWAYS foreign in the way of Portuguese and British possession. Take over etc. just not substantiated.”

    Pretty easy to have a lapse of faith when Dhimmi laws are implemented that life is so horrible that you will convert. Try the truth for once.
    Last time. I’ve been nothing but honest. Bottom line you can’t accept if someone else is right

    “Islam is dominant on the island nation for reasons you don’t get”

    And you dont get how Islam was spread in the first place.

    “I’m the douche ?”

    I never called you that. Just that you will post that but never the abuse Muslims inflict on women and non Muslims.

  104. Elric66 says:

    “I also wonder that you’ve dropped Geert (not that that was going anywhere) when I mentioned the martyred descendant of Van Gogh – Why? Is it because he represented a different approach from your ‘burn ‘em all out’ stance?”

    He was murdered by a Muslim for “insulting” Islam. He insulted alot of people but only a Muslims felt he had to to kill him Your point?

    “Take the caliphate of the iberian peninsular – you just ignore the fact that they treated the jews more reasonably than anyone else in history (until our modern times, I hope) and move onto the Maldives?”

    You ignore why the caliphate was there in the first place. That the Jews were treated so good is false. I”
    pointed out that the Maldives baned all religions and no outcry from the Islamic world. But if you print a cartoon of Mo-bomb-ed, they get irate. Just pointing out the intolerance of Islam.

    “And this is were my comment about becoming worse than your enemy – if you think that islam is bad and wrong then should you not think why you believe that – it’s intolerance and militarist and empirialist stance that you assume – what makes you think you are any better when you say you would do worse to them given the chance?”

    So I should tolerate intolerance? Islam had 1400 years, how many more years should Islam be given?

    “Take those interesting things – the crusades – you say they were all good because they stemmed the tide of Islam but when informed that some never made it to the ‘Holy Land’ and in fact also looted from orthodox christians – you say nothing?”

    I never said the Crusades were perfect. No war was ever conducted without people doing bad things. Overall, it kept the Caliphate from pouring into Europe and saved Europe from being Islamic. Overall it was a good thing. We nuked 2 cities in Japan and firebombed Germany. Were we the good guys? Should we have stayed out of WW 2?

  105. Elric66 says:

    ISLAMABAD: The Interior Ministry has directed provincial home secretaries, police chiefs and the authorities concerned in Islamabad, Azad Kashmir and the Northern Areas to remain alert to cope with any law and order situation that may erupt with the possible release of an “anti-Islam” Dutch movie. The National Crisis Management Cell has informed the abovementioned authorities in a letter that an “anti-Islam” film by Greet [sic] Wilders, a jurist in the Netherlands, is expected to release, which may result in public aggression against foreigners and the installations of multinational companies and diplomatic offices in Pakistan. Wilders, the chief of Holland Freedom Party, is also a Holland parliament member. Dutch Prime Minster Jan Peter and other leaders are urging him against the release of the movie. Wilders warns that he will upload the film on the Internet, if he is not allowed to release it.Only in Islam. Ironically the Muslim reaction just proves Wilder right.
    I2TF adds some perspective Istanbul Turkey http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,477158,00.html

  106. Elric66 says:

    “[Australian Federal Police] Commissioner Mick Keelty and NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione have revealed that they are investigating new terrorist threats, particularly in [New South Wales].”
    http://www.news.com.au/mercury/story/0,22884,23117991-421,00.html?from=public_rss
    Homegrown? I was told they were more assimilated than the older generation.

  107. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    Elric66, it’s good to see you back on topic…

    I mentioned Van Gogh as he was martyred for his stand on how islamic societies treat women – as a contrast to how he was campaigning to change things rather than to merely upbraid muslims… Is the Koran worse than Mien Kampf – have you read both?

    Disregarding the crusades I think you can quite easily say that a strong Constantinople was the best stopper for islamic spread… Japan was nuked twice whilst there were negotiations for its surrender… Germany wasn’t negotiating when Dresden was fire bombed and we now know that the huge damage inflicted by ‘The Dambusters’ did not harm the german war machine despite the destruction they unleashed… That’s not to say that fighting Hitler was wrong, my point is more on the ‘hows’ once you figure out your stance with care because they define you just as much as the policies of ‘your enemy’ define them.

    Islam may have had 1400yrs – how many have you had? If you say that you want to wipe out Islam because of it’s intolerance do you not also provoke the debate that according to your argument you should be wiped out as well for your intolerance? And no, I’m not arguing for that.

    The caliphate got to be in the iberian peninsular just like other states managed to get anywhere – war. France didn’t wake up and think ‘I’m a soveriegn state now…’ Italy became Italy as an idea by Rome slaughtering it’s way through the peninsular and then some decided centuries later to re-unite Italy by, guess what – yes, War! Germany became Germany after Prussia ‘collected’ the other states together – how, historically can you say that one person’s use of force to spread themselves is alright but another’s isn’t?

    You relate it to islam but you ignore/deny information that disagrees with you – the idea that the jews were governed better by the caliphate does hinge upon how they were treated before and after the caliphate. But this seems to be lost to you.

    There is enough in Islam and the Koran for a more progressive stance to come to the fore – one of the things we haven’t discussed is the affect of foreign intervention on a home population – it tends to make them more extreme then less. This was true for both the brits and the germans during WWII and it seems to be holding for islamic countries now as well.

    Buddhist and communist countries treat christians and christianity horribly, nevermind anybody else – in Japan it’s hard to get a birth certificate unless you get it from a buddhist priest and yes at that point you have to say he’s a little cute buddha… I wouldn’t invade Japan over it though… It is less than ten years ago when a family in Vietnam was killed by being crushed with a road roller going over them because they refused to renounce Christ…

    If we started slaughtering folk for intolerance we’d be left with an empty planet… so perhaps we should think about how we can make ourselves better and then influence those around us to be better and so on – rather than deciding on having pogroms aimed at muslims. Because where would you stop and who would be left?

  108. Free to think, free to believe... says:

    Yup – I said there were differences between the generations – virtually all of the muslims who came in in the ‘first wave’ would never think of terrorism but the later generations are going in every direction – helped by the foreign policy of some states… and the blinkeredness of some within the ‘host’ community.

    There is only one person to blame for being a terrorist at the end of the day – the terrorist. Would you say that Dietrich Bonhoeffer was wrong to try to assassinate Hitler? I am always wary of contextualizing morality as you can see from my response to ‘When in Rome…’ but you seem to embrace it in the grandest of ways ie the ‘I am Right and They are Wrong’ school of blinkers.

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